The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government is the first item on our agenda. The first question is from Delyth Jewell.

Funding for Leisure Services

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. What consideration did the Minister give to the need to fund leisure services when deciding on the budgets for local authorities in South Wales East ? OQ60369

Rebecca Evans AC: In making our decisions on the budget for 2023-24, I considered the breadth of services that local authorities deliver for their communities across Wales. Councils in South Wales East received a combined uplift of 7.4 per cent. This is significantly better than expected, but it has still meant difficult decisions for councils.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch.The Minister will be aware of the current leisure strategy under way in Caerphilly County Borough Council—the council proposing to reduce the number of leisure facilities, like Pontllanfraith leisure centre and Risca hockey pitch. There’s an active campaign group in the area calling to ‘save our leisure centre’, and leisure centres do provide a benefit to communities that goes beyond the monetary.
The Local Government and Housing Committee in the Senedd has found that Audit Wales said that, overall, the quality of local authority governance and leisure services provide health and well-being benefits and social benefits to communities. Sport Wales has said that for every £1 spent on sport, there’s a social return of £2.88. And Community Leisure UK Wales argue that leisure trusts create £101 of social value for every person using their facilities and services, measured through savings for the NHS, amongst other things. Now, I agree with the committee that there should be an emphasis on social value when local authorities determine how best to deliver leisure and, of course, library services. Do you agree with them as well, Minister?

Rebecca Evans AC: There’s absolutely no doubt whatsoever that leisure services, including libraries and sport centres and other local leisure services, obviously, have a huge social impact and are incredibly beneficial. That said, we do understand of course the huge pressures that local government are under at the moment as a result of the ongoing impact of austerity and just the sheer impact of the current levels of inflation on what they’re able to provide.
I do think that it is important that local authorities have autonomy in terms of the leisure services that they do provide, but, at the same time, they absolutely do need to be cognisant of the needs of their communities and, as they start to consider their budget plans for next year, to be consulting appropriately with communities and taking those views fully into account.
I don’t think that it’s appropriate for the Government to be making those decisions on locally provided services—it’s an important part of local democracy, and those democratically elected bodies, I think, are best placed to make those decisions about what to provide locally. But, that said, I absolutely recognise the huge pressure the sector’s under.

Laura Anne Jones AC: It's clear from the budget that this Government pays little regard to leisure facilities and sporting facilities in Wales. Small sports clubs are struggling, of course, at the moment, with maintenance as well as the energy costs that have already been outlined this winter. When you couple this, of course, with the leisure centres struggling and facing closure across Wales, urgent funding does seem to be required from this Government for overlooked and undervalued leisure services across Wales, which are being stretched to breaking point. And they do provide an invaluable service, as has been outlined by the other Member for South Wales East.
Welsh Ministers have, from time to time, rejected calls for targeted funding for venues and organisations that are facing closure, but that have a sustainable future beyond an immediate crisis. Yet, we see no action. So, will the Government increase funding to local authorities to help keep these crucial services afloat, Minister?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think we have to be realistic about the challenges facing us. Our Welsh Government budget actually decreases in real terms next year and, obviously, that’s going to have an impact also on the budgets of local authorities as well. Were there to be additional funding coming forward in the autumn statement, I’m sure that we would be in a position to be able to provide additional funding to all kinds of parts of the public sector that are struggling at the moment and to factor that uplift into our budget. But the fact remains that there was no additional funding for public services as a result of the autumn statement. So, we are facing an extremely difficult budget and I think that calls for additional funding for all kinds of very worthy things are just unrealistic at the moment. What we need to be thinking about, in terms of this next budget, is how we reshape that budget to meet the most urgent pressures, particularly those that we’re seeing in parts of the public sector. So, I think that calls for additional funding at this point are unrealistic.

Cost-of-living Pressures

Cefin Campbell AS: 2. What financial support is the Welsh Government providing to local authorities to help residents in mid and west Wales manage cost-of-living pressures? OQ60383

Rebecca Evans AC: We have provided funding to local authorities because we know that our councils provide many services that are essential for many people in our society. We have provided over £3 billion of support to those most affected by the cost-of-living crisis, including support channelled through local authorities.

Cefin Campbell AS: Thank you very much. Well, as we know, of course, people across Wales are facing a very difficult winter because of the ongoing cost-of-living crisis. And in this context, there is a vital role for local authorities in ensuring that everyone receives the support that they have a right to receive. And according to a report by Policy in Practice in April 2023, around £19 billion of benefits aren't being claimed annually. This includes vital benefits for people of working age, and for older people, as well as things such as social tariffs for help with broadband, free tv licences, and so on, and, more locally, of course, support with council tax relief. Recently, I had an opportunity to visit the Hwb in Carmarthen—one of a number of hubs that have been established by Carmarthenshire County Council—and there is advice and support available there to help people access the benefits that they have a right to receive. And I heard evidence about some receiving tens of thousands of pounds that they didn't know that they had the right to claim. So, does the Minister agree with me that this is a model to be emulated and expanded, and, if so, how can local authorities across Wales be supported to do more of this?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful for the question. It is a fact that there are so many people across Wales who aren't claiming what is rightfully theirs. That's why the work that we're doing through our Claim What's Yours campaign is so vitally important, in terms of making people aware of the support that's available. I know the older people's commissioner, to which you referred, has been doing huge amounts of work in terms of pension credits. We know that £200 million is lost to people across Wales because they're not claiming pension credits, and, of course, if you are able to claim pension credit, then you can go on and have a free tv licence if you're over 75, and a whole range of other support, such as council tax reduction, as well. So, it's really important that all of us individually promote to our communities the kind of support that is available and encourage people to consider what is rightfully theirs.
So Claim What's Yours is really important. That's work that is being led by the Minister for Social Justice, and, alongside her, I recently met with local government, and we discussed the Welsh benefits charter, which, again, is about working with local authorities to be very proactive in identifying people who we think might be eligible for support that they're not currently claiming. So, that is important work that is ongoing with local authorities at the moment, but, where there are examples of best practice, we absolutely need to look at those. One thing that we need to consider, for example, is the council tax reduction scheme. And people on universal credit at the moment would need to, in most cases, provide an additional application for that; they might have thought it would have been automatically applied, as it would have been in the past. So, we're working with local authorities to try and find a more streamlined way of people on universal credit receiving council tax reduction scheme support, if they're eligible for it. So, there's a lot of work going on in this space, but anything we can all do individually, I think, to promote this in our communities is important.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Minister, with the council tax rebanding plans not expected to affect council tax bills until 2025, Carmarthenshire County Council has imposed a 6.8 per cent increase for band D properties this financial year, with similar increases likely next year. This places a significant burden on my constituents, particularly those on lower-than-average incomes who are already struggling to cope with current cost-of-living pressures. Many councils, including Carmarthenshire, hold substantial reserves. The latest figure shows that Carmarthenshire has £215 million in reserves. Therefore, what measures can the Welsh Government take to encourage councils like Carmarthenshire to utilise some of these reserves to reduce the council tax burden on their residents, allowing them to retain more of their hard-earned money? Diolch.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I should just be clear that 2025 is the earliest date at which council tax reform could come into place. We are currently consulting, and part of that includes the pace of reform, which could be 2028, or another date. So, I'd just be clear about that. Local authorities are already using significant amounts of reserves this year, and I'm sure they plan to do so next year, to ensure that they limit council tax increases as far as possible to their communities, and that was very much recognised in a recent piece of work by the Wales fiscal analysis unit, which specifically recognised the important role that accessing reserves had played for local authorities in this financial year.
Ultimately, at the end of the day, what it boils down is the lack of additional funding from the UK Government for public services. Public services have been absolutely starved of funding as a result of austerity and as a result of the UK Government's refusal to invest in public services. Were there more funding available to local authorities, of course it would mean that they didn't have to give such large increases to council tax. But, at the end of the day, they've got statutory services to provide. We've already had a discussion about other important services, such as leisure services, which they have to consider as well. And those cost money. So, if there is no additional funding coming from the UK Government, then, unfortunately, they have to look to council tax, which is another one of their important levers.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Sam Rowlands AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, could you outline your assessment around the ability of local authorities in Wales to set balanced budgets for the next financial year?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, as I was just referring in my previous comments, things are looking very difficult for local authorities, but, that said, I am confident that local authorities will provide balanced budgets for the next financial year.

Sam Rowlands AS: Okay. I'm glad to hear that you're confident of that, but I'm sure you're aware of a letter recently sent to you by the leader of Conwy County Borough Council, which outlined his serious concerns for setting a balanced budget next year, echoing a similar letter sent to you by the leader of Denbighshire County Council as well, using the word 'bankrupt' for the future of his council up in Denbighshire, in a letter he sent out to councillors recently as well.
In the letter sent to you recently, the leader of Conwy County Borough Council points to the fact that neighbouring authorities receive around 10 or 15 per cent more per head in funding than they do in Conwy, seemingly pointing to the fact there's an older population that seems to get punished through the funding formula. I know you've referred in the past to looking into reviewing the funding formula at the appropriate time, and elements of the funding formula are being considered at the moment. Are you able to commit today to some of that review taking place before the end of this financial year, so that those local authority leaders can have the confidence that their funding formula is fair for them in the next financial year?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, the funding formula is constantly under review through the work of the distribution sub-group of the Partnership Council for Wales, which works alongside the finance sub-group, essentially to determine and update figures that relate to the funding formula. I'm not proposing a whole-scale review of the funding formula, because when it's taking place in England, actually, it takes years to undertake. And we also have to remember, as we've discussed already this afternoon, we're looking towards a period of council tax reform, and I think that we need to be mindful that that will have an impact, of course, on local authorities. And one thing that we would have to consider would be transitional support for local authorities if and when council tax reform takes place, following consideration of the consultation responses. And, obviously, that will lead to a great deal of churn as well. So, there's only, I think, so much disruption that the system could take at one point. So, I don't think a whole-scale review of the funding formula is right at the moment, and it's certainly not something that the Welsh Local Government Association has been calling for.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thanks for that response, Minister. It does seem unusual, though, that neighbouring councils have such different levels of funding, based on what seems to be indicated as driving that the most, which is the age of population. [Interruption.] Thank you for that interesting intervention. But there's a very real image here of councils potentially going bust in Wales, and council leaders are warning you of that. You said in your first response that you're confident that councils will be able to set a balanced budget. They don't seem to share that same confidence at all, actually, and are openly talking about not being able to set balanced budgets, openly talking about section 114 notices.So, do you think you're prepared for that, because, in your first response, you didn't sound like you were, because you said that you're confident these things will be fine? Do you think you're prepared for the reality these council leaders are facing at the moment?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think that council leaders themselves recognise that a section 114 notice, in and of itself, doesn't help the situation at all. I think council leaders will be working very hard to balance their budgets for the next year. They'll be thinking about all of the tools that they have available to them—the funding through the revenue support grant, council tax, and other levers for raising funding locally.
But this is really a demonstration of just how starved public services are right across the UK, and it is a direct response to the UK Government's failure to invest in public services. If our Welsh Government budget had grown in line with the economy since 2010, we would have £3 billion more to allocate next year. Imagine the kind of budget we could be tabling, and debating and scrutinising in the Senedd if we had £3 billion more to invest in public services and our other responsibilities in Wales. So, if the Welsh Conservatives are concerned about local government funding and concerned about public services in the round, they need to be making those cases to the UK Government, which has the ultimate tools available to it, to provide the investment that's needed.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Council leaders across Wales will have listened to the words of your leader, Keir Starmer, during the last week about not turning on the spending taps if he wins the next Westminster election with considerable alarm. It has been outlined by the Wales Governance Centre that the funding gap for local government is projected to be £354 million during the next financial year, which could rise to £740 million by 2027-28. On every metric, local government finances are on an unsustainable trajectory. Having already been forced to cut services to the bone over the past 13 years of austerity, many local authorities in Wales are now in a state of existential peril, and, of course, the picture is being replicated across the UK. Last week, Nottingham became the latest on a growing list of local authorities that have had to declare that it's bankrupt. How is the Welsh Goverment monitoring this threat to Wales? What support is being offered to councils to stave off the prospect of bankruptcy? And does the Minister agree with her UK Labour leader that keeping public spending reined in is the way to do this?

Rebecca Evans AC: I had the opportunity, this week, to talk to Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer about some of their plans for the future and some of the things that they will be putting to the people of the United Kingdom. And one of the things that they've already talked about publicly is addressing non-domiciled status, addressing the charitable status of schools in England, and both of those things would potentially lead to consequential funding for us here in Wales. And those are just two things, months out from a general election, that they're suggesting that could be dealt with were there to be a change of Government, which would lead to additional funding for us. So, I think, that we'd obviously be in close contact with the Labour team ahead of the election and we had the opportunity, really, to set out very clearly the pressures that this Welsh Government is under in terms of our budget, but also I was very clear about the pressures on local government as well.
So, I think the Wales Governance Centre work was really important. It does set out the pressures that local government is facing. It didn't tell us anything that I haven't heard directly from local government through the meetings of the finance sub-group and my other meetings with local government as well. So, yes, this is a very, very difficult time for local government. One thing that I think is different in Wales, and that we have in our favour, is the way in which we work in partnership. And I think that you can't put a price on that kind of joint and respectful working with local government, and it will certainly be something that, I think, will carry us through what will be a difficult period ahead.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that answer.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: It was very interesting. Last weekend, in between waxing lyrical about Margaret Thatcher's driving sense of purpose, whose destructive legacy is still keenly felt by communities across my constituency, your UK Labour leader also outlined his vision for public spending in Government, which he might have shared with you in the meeting, which essentially amounts to austerity 2.0. By pledging not to turn on the spending taps and continuing down the road of austerity, despite its devastating consequences over the past 13 years, Keir Starmer is condemning our public services to a highly uncertain future, and the implications for Wales are particularly dire.
As I've mentioned many times in this Chamber, we are already short changed by the Barnett funding model that does not fully account for our societal needs, whilst the recent Welsh Government tax conference laid bare the extent of the pressures that will be exerted on Wales's finances over the coming years, partially as a result of underinvestment from Westminster. It leads me to wonder whether the UK Labour leader has any real comprehension of the current challenges facing the Welsh people and our public services if he believes that another dose of austerity is in order. Don't take my word for it; this is what was said by the head of economics at the New Economics Foundation, a left-wing think tank, who said, following Starmer's speech, and I quote:
'Starmer is kidding himself if he believes he can maintain current living standards, let alone improve them, without more government spending and investment.'
Can I therefore ask you for your assessment as to how UK Labour's intention to constrain public spending will affect the state of devolved finances in Wales after the general election? And do you share the First Minister's belief that the Labour Government in Westminster will provide the investment that we need in our public services, and if so, how do you reconcile this with the reality that Keir Starmer is not committing to reverse austerity in any meaningful way?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, Llywydd, I don’t intend to fight a general election that hasn’t yet even been called in finance questions in this Senedd, but what I will say is that we have to be mindful of what an incoming Labour Government—should there be one—would be inheriting. It would be inheriting the impacts of the failure of the UK Government to invest in public services, and also the crashing of the economy by Liz Truss. I mean, we are still facing that, and it’s not just public services that are still facing that; it’s individuals who are facing that in their own household budgets, and the difficulties that they’re facing in paying their mortgages. We’re all seeing that in our casework, and I don’t think anyone can deny that. What you will see, I’m sure, will be an absolute change of priorities on the part of a Labour Government. Public services will be a priority, people who are reliant on those public services will be a priority, jobs will be a priority, the richest will not be the priority, and you’ll see that very differently, I think, and all that will be set out in the general election.

Revaluation of Properties

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: 3. Will the Minister confirm the timetable for completing the revaluation of properties for the purpose of council tax? OQ60370

Rebecca Evans AC: So, I launched a phase 2 consultation on a fairer council tax on 14 November. I am seeking views on the scale and the pace of reform. The consultation makes clear that the earliest date from which reform could take effect would be April 2025, and I'll announce the way forward in due course.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. When the last Labour Government undertook revaluation back in 2004 here in Wales, there were significant transition measures put in place for properties that found themselves moving up the bands considerably during that revaluation process. Do you agree with me, Minister, that irrespective of what we might think about the revaluation process, or indeed what the outcome of that process might be, these transition measures must be put in place this time round to make sure that people do not move up two, three, four bands because of the revaluation that your Government has put in place, and in particular where they might be individuals who are of pensionable age or living on their own, and ultimately that jump in the demand from the local authority could be so significant that it would be beyond their means to stay within the property they’ve lived in all their lives?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, I’ve been crystal clear, I think, since the launch of this work that we will obviously be considering transitional arrangements for people who are impacted by council tax reform in terms of seeing their bills rise. What those transitional arrangements look like we can’t yet say, because we haven’t had the outcome of the consultation and we haven’t modelled what that outcome would look like. We have modelled a few different approaches, which might be the approaches to take, in the consultation document. All of those approaches would result in more households seeing their council tax bills fall rather than rise, but we’ve also been very clear, both in the consultation and indeed in the legislation that we’ve introduced, that there will be no removal of the single person discount.

The Mutual Investment Model

Mike Hedges AC: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on use of the mutual investment model by the Welsh Government? OQ60355

Rebecca Evans AC: The mutual investment model is used to bring forward capital investment when all other sources of funding have been exhausted. It has been used to fund the dualling of sections 5 and 6 of the A465, as well as school-building projects in Flintshire and Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Minister. That I have concerns over the mutual investment model is well documented. It can best be described as a private finance initiative without ongoing janitorial services. Any community benefit will be priced into the contract and, if a contract is going to fail, then liquidation and applying to be paid for work done remains an option for the contractor. Also, the mutual investment model has an effect on revenue budgets in future years. Will the Government consider postponing contracts until they can be funded by the cheaper option of using capital allocation or Government borrowing?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm grateful to Mike Hedges for the question, and respectfully suggest that we take different views on the mutual investment model. And I suppose the direct answer to the question as to whether we will postpone projects until we can fund them through traditional capital, then I'm afraid that the answer to that has to be 'no'. Our capital budget falls by 6 per cent in real terms next year, and our capital budget is under huge pressure as it is at the moment. Unlike traditional procurement, community benefits are priced, and the failure to deliver those can be sanctioned. However, in practice, we're actually seeing, through the MIM project, contractors delivering excellent community benefits, and I intend to elaborate on them when I publish the next MIM report in the spring.
So, I think the question is: do we want these projects to take place? So, there's no way in which we could have undertaken the level of work that we are on the A465 at the moment without the MIM; that would have taken us an awful lot longer. And we've currently begun the construction of schools in Flintshire and RCT, and we have an ambitious pipeline of schools and colleges across Wales to deliver £0.5 billion of much-needed investment in educational infrastructure. So, I wouldn't want to make children and young people wait for those better learning environments until we have the traditional capital available to us.

Peter Fox AS: Minister, while MIM is an important vehicle to drive infrastructure development without depleting capital budgets, it has to be affordable as its projects will be funded through revenue. And we know those three main areas that are currently considered under MIM will equate to about £1.3 billion, which is probably going to cost somewhere circa £18 million a year to service, over 30 years, once those projects are completed. The A465 Dowlais to Hirwaun is about £590 million. We know that's over 30 years. It's around £38 million a year, a predicted cost in the long run is nearer £1.2 billion at the end of those 30 years. And I suppose what I really want to understand, Minister, is around those annual service charges: how are they monitored? Are they index linked? How do they account for inflation, going forward, because it's very difficult to see how those figures could be projected 30 years in advance to arrive at the costings as they are now? So, I look forward to your updated plan in the near future, but perhaps you could reflect on those questions.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes. So, once an asset is completed and operational, the public sector pays the annual service payments to which you've referred, and that's paid to the project company. And it's modelled to provide for the cost of design, build, finance, maintenance and the life-cycle of the project. And that's fixed through the procurement process. It includes full costs, and also included in that is the cost of transferring what is significant risk away from the public sector. But, as you said, I'll be providing a full update in a report in the new year.

Vacant Land Tax

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 5. Will the Minister provide an update on progress regarding the devolution of powers in respect of a vacant land tax? OQ60358

Rebecca Evans AC: Six years ago, we began the process to devolve new powers for a vacant land tax, and we have still not been able to secure these powers. It is clear that the process is not fit for purpose.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: This is really frustrating because, as the Minister will know, when we tested the appetite of the public informally with a social media poll way back six years ago, this was the tax, this was the levy that was most popular with everybody, because we're all frustrated with vacant parcels of land that feature in the local development plan, or where they've had planning permission, but they sit there as developers seek to accumulate wealth through the increase in the property value of that land rather than actually developing it. Meanwhile, we need to build more affordable houses; meanwhile, we need development for jobs as well. So, I wonder what assistance we can give as representatives on all these benches to make those representations to the Westminster UK Government to say, 'Please devolve these powers to us so we can get on with it.'

Rebecca Evans AC: Absolutely, and I think that, actually, there is a significant role for the Senedd and for Senedd Members in terms of impressing upon the UK Government that, actually, it's for the Senedd to be concerned about how the Welsh Government uses any powers that are provided to it. We think that the UK Government has a legitimate interest in whether the powers are suitable for devolution, but actually what the Welsh Government does with those powers is absolutely a matter for Members of the Senedd. And that's been the sticking block, I think, with this, in the sense that we've provided huge amounts of information to the UK Government, but the UK Government still wants to know the kind of finer details to how the tax might operate, and that is absolutely a matter for this Senedd, not for the UK Government. And you really do see the contrast because in the meantime, Scotland has been working with the UK Government through the agreed process—the same one that we followed—to secure new taxes with a view to introducing a building safety levy. And the difference there is that what Scotland wants to do mirrors what the UK Government wants to do. So, if the UK Government is okay with the policy and the operation, then it seems to be happy to devolve the tax, and that shouldn't be the way, because that really does, I think, disrespect the Senedd and its role.
So, I met with the latest Financial Secretary to the Treasury just in the last couple of weeks, and, again, they're after further information. So, this time, there's concern about what this might mean for tax takes in England and what this might mean for housing in England and so on. Well, actually, it means nothing for tax takes in England because one of the reasons we chose this was because it's such a small, narrow, focused tax and it wouldn't have implications beyond our borders. So, you know, if it can't work on something so focused, then how can it work for other ambitions that other people might have?

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, rather than pressing for even more powers and creating even more taxes, should you not, Minister, be working to incentivise house builders, not making it harder to do business in Wales? Two national industry experts have previously raised concerns about the unintended consequences of vacant land tax, which may hinder rather than help new developers. It is unacceptable that the Welsh Government is asking the Welsh Parliament to agree with the possible future devolution of a vacant land tax without outlining detailed proposals of what such a tax would look like, how it would work and what impact it would have on the housing and construction industry. We are in a housing crisis: 100,000 homes in Wales sit completely vacant—more than one in 10 homes in some areas. Minister, should you not be concentrating on bringing those homes back into use rather than seeking to penalise developers?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, there's no penalising developers within a vacant land tax; the whole point is that developers should be developing the land, so there's no penalising. What this tax would intend to do would be to bring forward those developments on land that is often a blight on communities, and also, you know, bring forward all of the benefits that we've heard about in terms of jobs and so on. My colleague the Minister for Climate Change obviously is working very hard on empty homes, on increasing house building and particularly working on the agenda to bring forward zero-carbon social housing here in Wales. But, actually, all of those important questions that were asked in terms of what would the tax look like, how would it work in practice—those are questions for scrutiny in the Senedd. And, you know, I look forward to the point at which, at some point in the future, the Senedd is able to scrutinise those questions, because that's where the questions need to be scrutinised, rather than in meetings with UK Government Ministers.

Flood Protection

Jack Sargeant AC: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding funding to protect communities in Alyn and Deeside from flooding? OQ60377

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government is investing £75 million as part of our flood programme for 2023-24, with £5.25 million revenue funding available to local authorities. We've also made £12 million capital funding available to support the development and delivery of construction works, for which local authorities can submit applications.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Minister for her answer, and she will know I have raised the issue of the recent flooding of communities in Alyn and Deeside on numerous occasions in the Senedd. I've attended public meetings both in Sandycroft and Broughton, and having been in dialogue with Welsh Government, with local government, Natural Resources Wales and others, I'm keen to see the work begin. I'm aware that conversations have already taken place between Welsh Government and Flintshire County Council officials about the potential funding bids that will be informed by the results of the section 19 investigations that are currently progressing. This is important, Minister; we have to get this right. Projects have to be evidence-based to be effective. However, residents are understandably keen for reassurance. Can I ask what reassurances you can give that when it comes to funding bids, badly impacted households in Flintshire are a real priority?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful for the question. I'm afraid that I personally wouldn't be involved in those funding bids, in the sense that it would be something that the department for climate change deals with. So, I haven't been involved with any of those discussions between Welsh Government and Flintshire council, but I do understand from the Minister for Climate Change that Flintshire County Council has identified a number of potential schemes, which will be appraised and prioritised alongside the bids from the risk management authorities in Wales, and we look forward to receiving those bids.

Mark Isherwood AC: Questioning you here last month on the same issue, I referred to a statement by a Flintshire County Council official at the Broughton flooding public meeting 11 days previously, that they would be submitting bids to the Welsh Government for works identified by the section 19 flood investigation they were now launching with other agencies after properties in Broughton and Bretton were again flooded. I asked you what prospect, given the resources you have available, that such bids—if properly drafted, worked up and evidenced—have of being successful. You replied, as you just did, that thatwould be more a question for the Minister for Climate Change. In consequent correspondence, the Minister for Climate Change told me that her officials are in regular contact with flood risk officers at Flintshire County Council, to provide advice and guidance on submissions for Welsh Government funding and will consider any business cases put forward by the local authority. Well, given your overall budget responsibility, what subsequent discussion have you therefore had with the Minister for Climate Change, since my question last month, regarding provision of funding within her budget to meet these needs?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, I have been briefed by the Minister's officials in advance of questions today in relation to the flooding in Flintshire and the applications that are expected. But just to be really clear, this is a matter for the Minister for Climate Change. Any funding will be coming through her own budget and through the schemes that she's set up, which can be accessed by risk management authorities, such as local authorities and Natural Resources Wales, who are responsible for delivering the flood alleviation schemes in Wales. It is very much a matter for the portfolio Minister, I'm afraid. It wouldn't be something that I would be in a decision-making role over, because it is a matter for the climate change department.

Delivery of Public Services

Vikki Howells AC: 7. How is the Welsh Government supporting local government to deliver public services? OQ60376

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Government will continue to prioritise front-line public services, including local government, as far as possible in our forthcoming budget decisions. While the outlook is challenging, I welcome the pragmatic way that we are working together with local government to ensure that we do all we can within the funding available.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. We all heard the news about Nottingham City Council issuing a section 114 bankruptcy notice last week, with an unprecedented 26 other English local authorities being at risk of issuing similar notices over the next year. The UK Government's autumn statement could have made things better, but it didn't contain a single additional penny for key public services such as education or social care. The Welsh Government has, in contrast, a tremendous track record in supporting Welsh councils, but local Government here is feeling the pinch. So, how is Welsh Government working to prioritise support for the sector and the public services on which our communities all rely?

Rebecca Evans AC: We're working very closely with local government to understand the significant pressures that they're facing, but we're also investing in our performance support as well. You'll recall that the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 put in place a new sector-led performance regime to drive improvement in local authorities across Wales, and in many cases that can look to drive some efficiencies, as hard as that is, in local government as well. To support implementation of that, I've agreed £800,000 funding for the WLGA improvement programme, to provide for shared learning and corporate improvement across councils. So, that is a source of funding that is available where there is learning to be had, and also encouraging authorities, of course, to work jointly on shared issues and challenges.

The Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill

Natasha Asghar AS: 8. What discussions has the Minister had with local authorities in South Wales East in relation to the Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill? OQ60353

Rebecca Evans AC: I've regularly discussed the Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill with local authorities across Wales. The matters covered in the Bill draw on extensive research work and have been the subject of consultations with which local authorities in South Wales East have engaged with.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you for your answer, Minister. There is a great deal of concern amongst media outlets over the proposed changes to public notices. The Bill seeks to remove the requirement for councils to publish changes in council tax rates in a public notice in a newspaper, and instead publish them online. Public notices provide vital revenue for newspapers, which, in turn, enables them to deliver higher quality coverage of local and national stories. With Wales having high levels of digital exclusion, newspapers do, inevitably, play a pivotal role in keeping residents informed. Gavin Thompson, the editor of the South Wales Argus in my region, told me, and I quote:
'Removing the need to publish council tax changes in local newspapers is a start of a slippery slope that could have serious and lasting consequences for the provision of local news across Wales.'
He added:
'Now is...not the time to pile further problems on our industry.'
So, Minister, will we be ditching this part of the Bill and instead reinstate your Government's support for local news, going forward?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, section 20 of the Bill does, as you say, remove the statutory requirement for billing authorities to publish council tax notices in at least one newspaper circulating in their area. It is replaced by a requirement to publish notices electronically on their website, and I think that's just being realistic about the way in which people engage with and consume information these days. But the Bill also then places a duty on local authorities to ensure that the information is accessible for people who cannot access a website, so that could be about putting information in public places in the local area—libraries, council offices—or publishing within their own newsletters. And local authorities also provide information about council tax as part of their annual bill for citizens as well. So, there will be other ways for people who are digitally excluded to access that information. But that said, we're about to start the engagement and scrutiny process through the Senedd at the moment, so I'm sure that that will be something that's scrutinised in great detail in committee. But, as I say, it's about being realistic about how people access information, but also putting safeguards in for those who are excluded.

Local Authority Services

John Griffiths AC: 9. What steps will the Welsh Government take to work with local government to promote good practice across local authorities in the delivery of services? OQ60392

Rebecca Evans AC: The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 put in place a new sector-led performance regime to drive improvement in local authorities across Wales. To support implementation, I have agreed £800,000 of funding for the Welsh Local Government Association improvement programme to provide for shared learning and corporate improvement across councils.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. I think we know that, looking at our 22 local authorities, there is still considerable variation in delivery of services. Notwithstanding local circumstances, geography and demographics, I think evaluation does show that local authorities have their areas of strength, of course, but also areas of relative weakness in effectiveness of service delivery. We live in a time, Minister, where there is an evermore pressing need to deliver more effectively with limited resource, and we know that local authorities' budgets are under growing pressure. So, with that funding that you've identified, Minister, would you now expect to see more innovation and development in our local authorities, in terms of identifying and spreading that good practice?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think that difficult times are the times at which perhaps we can see some of that innovation come most to the fore. And one of the things that I'm doing at the moment is organising an event for public services boards, and doing that in partnership with the future generations commissioner, because when I've been going around Wales visiting local authorities and visiting public services boards, I've been seeing absolutely wonderful examples of innovation and different ways of doing things, and more effective ways of doing things, but sometimes we know that good practice just does not travel very well. So, one of the things that the future generations commissioner and I are working on is that event for public services boards—I think early in the new year—where we can start to really shine a spotlight on some of that innovation and good practice.
Another area where you can see that happening as well is through the work of Ystadau Cymru. So, I was really pleased to present the annual Ystadau Cymru awards last week and, again, that was about identifying really good areas of practice where the public sector is working across organisational boundaries to ensure that they deliver better services for people. So, I think that we are seeing great innovation happening all over Wales, but, absolutely, we need to be corralling that and finding a way to make it the norm, if you like.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 10, Sarah Murphy.

Funding Local Government

Sarah Murphy AS: 10. What impact has the UK Government's autumn statement had on the Welsh Government's plans for funding local government? OQ60361

Rebecca Evans AC: Public services in Wales are already making incredibly difficult decisions and local authorities are reporting acute challenges. The UK Government failed to recognise these pressures in the autumn statement. We will continue to prioritise front-line public services, including local government, in our forthcoming budget decisions as far as possible.

Sarah Murphy AS: Thank you very much, Minister. I know you've touched on a lot of this this afternoon with my other colleagues' questions, but it was very interesting reading the feedback from the local authorities in England, who also said that there was just absolutely nothing in the autumn statement to help them at all, and that was with things—. For adult social care, nothing, temporary housing, nothing. Bridgend County Borough Council, the three things that they have to spend most of their budget on are homelessness, child protection in social services and then home-to-school transport, which I've raised before. These are things that they absolutely have to provide. So, this autumn statement failed to protect any of the services that people rely on, and the Institute of Fiscal Studies has said:
'Plans beyond 2025 imply making cuts to some "unprotected" areas (like local government, or prisons) and imply big cuts to the level of public investment.'
So, it's looking quite bleak going forward in the future. So, I was just wondering, if you have any conversations, if they pay any attention to what you say in Welsh Government when you're calling out for these things—not just for Welsh Government, actually, but for local authorities across the UK.

Rebecca Evans AC: I think that message is really important, that the challenges that we're feeling in Wales aren't unique to us here in Wales, but local authorities across the border in England have been stressing these exact same challenges to the UK Government. And, actually, colleagues will have seen just a couple of weeks ago that the Scottish Government announced a similar in-year exercise to that which we've talked about in the Senedd before. So, you'll remember that we had to reprioritise around £900 million, or identify funding for that £900 million, to close the gap in our budget this year as a result of inflation. Well, Scotland did some of that work last year, so they reprioritised, I think, around £600 million of their budget last year, and then they've done another exercise doing around the same again this year. So, it's definitely pressure that's being felt right across the UK, and you can see, obviously, the impact in England of the UK Government's failure to invest in local government, and the situation is more acute in England, but it doesn't take away from the challenges that we have here.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is questions to the Minister for rural affairs and north Wales. The first question is from Natasha Asghar.

The Sustainable Farming Scheme

Natasha Asghar AS: 1. How will the sustainable farming scheme support habitats in Wales? OQ60378

Lesley Griffiths AC: The proposed sustainable farming scheme contains a requirement for at least 10 per cent of land on farms in the scheme to be managed as habitat to benefit biodiversity as part of the ongoing sustainable production of food. I look forward to launching the sustainable farming scheme later this month.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Can I just quickly pay a tribute to Buglife Cymru, who launched their important invertebrate areas maps at a fantastic event here today in the Pierhead this afternoon? Minister, I'm asking this question with my yellow mayfly champion hat on, a role I'm very proud to have. It's important to yellow mayflies that their river habitats are left clean and healthy, and are managed sensitively for wildlife. Non-governmental organisations have told me that whilst they are glad an interim scheme was established between Glastir ending and the sustainable farming scheme beginning, they have various concerns about the reduced payment rates and the implication that this means nature is worth less, particularly when the SFS is supported to be bringing more farming packages in line with nature's recovery, whilst also ensuring that businesses are viable. Schemes like this will be vital for our at-risk species, yet no habitat data has indeed been released. So, Minister, I'd like to know if Habitat Wales has brought more habitat into management support than was perhaps provided by Glastir, and how much habitat has dropped out of the scheme. I'd also like clarification on if, indeed, this information will be published going forward. Thanks.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I can't answer those questions yet because the window for application to the Habitat Wales scheme only closed on 10 November. We're doing all the administrative checks at the moment, and then contracts will be awarded.

Support for Farmers

Samuel Kurtz AS: 2. How is the Welsh Government supporting farmers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ60366

Lesley Griffiths AC: We have paid more than £30 million in basic payment scheme 2023 advance payments to over 96 per cent of claimants in Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire since 12 October. Farmers can also apply to other grant schemes as they become available. In addition, Farming Connect provides crucial support to help farm businesses improve and grow.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you, Minister, and it's interesting you mention 'other grants when available', because it's been 14 months since the Welsh Government announced, with great fanfare, that up to £20 million of extra funding would be allocated to support farmers in complying with the water resources regulations, known to many as nitrate vulnerable zones. This announcement was met with much enthusiasm from the agricultural industry. However, despite the passage of 14 months, not a single penny of this promised funding has materialised, leaving the industry in a state of dismay and uncertainty. The Welsh Government's own impact assessment estimates that the upfront costs of complying with the regulations is £360 million, a figure that has now likely increased due to the spikes in inflation.
The Welsh Government's dangling of potential support without concrete action has created a sense of frustration and distrust amongst farmers. So, it is imperative that the Welsh Government solidify the funding arrangements and fulfil its promises to the agricultural industry. With new storage requirements coming in next August, and farmers facing significant lead-in times due to planning and environmental constraints, Minister, can you confirm where this funding is and when will it be released?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, certainly I can. I've consistently made funding available over many years to improve nutrient management on farms. In 2022 we offered a combined budget of £18 million for two schemes that supported on-farm infrastructure investments; over 50 per cent of that budget offered in 2022 was not utilised. The intention with it is to open a further window for the yard coverings scheme, and we will also consider further application windows for 2024, once the budget availability has been confirmed.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, with just over three weeks remaining until the Habitat Wales scheme commences, we are still without any concrete information regarding the scheme's total budget. This lack of transparency is deeply concerning, especially considering the scheme's launch date is fast approaching. Over 3,200 farmers have expressed interest in the scheme, with approximately 50 per cent of those not previously participating in Glastir. This implies that roughly 1,500 Glastir farmers in Wales will no longer receive financial support for environmental initiatives. In a recent letter, you stated that a level of support is being maintained to existing Glastir contract holders for 2024. However, this assertion directly contradicts the fact that 50 per cent of Glastir contract holders have not expressed interest in the Habitat Wales scheme.
You've also mentioned specific support for organic farmers but no further details have been provided. Given the impending start of the scheme and the lack of clarity surrounding its funding, do you believe it's acceptable that Welsh farmers remain in the dark about the financial support available, and, additionally, does the implementation of this scheme instil confidence in the agricultural industry regarding the sustainable farming scheme?

Lesley Griffiths AC: If I can just go to your question around organic first, I did commit to providing small pots of funding for organic. Once the 2024 draft budget has been laid, I will be able to bring forward figures then.
In relation to the Habitat Wales scheme, you will have heard me say, in my earlier answer to your colleague Natasha Asghar, that I'm very pleased, first of all, with the number of applications—I think it's very encouraging we had so many—and we are just doing the administrative checks, and contracts will be awarded in the very near future.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Thank you. Yes, 3,200 expressions of interest are just that—expressions of interest. That's no guarantee that 3,200 will actually accept the contracts that are put forward to them, especially if the budget for the Habitat Wales scheme is set incredibly low.
Minister, last week at the winter fair, I was struck by the concerns expressed by the farming unions and stakeholders about the current financial situation facing the Welsh agricultural sector. These concerns were further amplified in a joint letter published yesterday by farming and environmental organisations,urging the First Minister to protect the 2024-25 rural affairs budget. I mean, congratulations on bringing together both the farming and environmental lobbies in opposition of the Welsh Government once again.
The Welsh Government has the £337 million available to maintain next year's BPS—the 2024 basic payment scheme—at its current level. With this funding in place, you cannot point the finger of blame at Westminster, as it will be this Welsh Government's decision if that £337 million is cut. For every £1 invested in the BPS, there is a £9 return to the wider economy, demonstrating the significant value of this programme. However, the joint letter warns that further budget cuts would, I quote,
'seriously threaten and undermine our rural communities and our ability to meet our shared aspiration to be global leaders in the production of climate and nature friendly food.'
Do you share these concerns, and can you commit to protecting the 2024 BPS budget?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, you will have heard the First Minister say that we are not able to protect any budget in the Welsh Government, and I absolutely understand it is a period of great uncertainty for the agricultural sector, just like any other sector. Everybody is facing significant inflationary challenges. We've all got stretched budgets, and I think we've been very clear as a Government just how challenging our financial situation is. That means we're having to make some very difficult decisions as we do finalise the draft budget ahead of it being laid on 19 December.
I would echo what the First Minister said: we're absolutely committed to supporting farmers and our rural communities in Wales. You will know I prioritised the BPS budget this year in a way that just did not happen in England. There's been cut after cut in England. So, every country in the UK is facing these significant challenges, but I would just like to remind you that Wales has lost at least £243 million of replacement EU funding because of decisions taken by the UK Government.

Samuel Kurtz AS: You reference cuts to BPS in England; that’s money that has not been lost, that’s money transferred across to other schemes that are already in operation in England, which aren’t yet in operation here in Wales. So, that’s not money lost—that’s money making its way to English farmers where money isn’t, potentially, making its way to Welsh farmers come next year.
But I’m an optimist. I look for the positives, and I’m sure you’ll be aware of the fantastic and eye-opening research findings from YouGov, commissioned by NFU Cymru, on how farming and farm funding is perceived by the Welsh public. One of the most significant and notable statistics found that 82 per cent of the Welsh public said they agree with Welsh Government providing financial support to Welsh farmers to produce food. Now, when the First Minister last year said that he needed to justify supporting farmers to Bangladeshi taxi drivers, I don’t think he quite understood the hurt that this comment caused Wales’s agricultural community, nor the fact that this independent research showed so conclusively that a majority of people fully agree with supporting our farmers to continue to produce high-quality environmentally friendly food.
But why is it that, here in Wales, our farming sector always has to fight for the scraps from the Welsh Government’s table? It’s only 2 per cent of the Welsh Government’s budget as it is. You can’t commit to protecting BPS for next year, yet Transport for Wales is happily bailed out to the tune of £125 million. There’s no budget announced for the Habitat Wales scheme, yet there is £33 million for new speed limits, and we know, thanks to the co-operation agreement, that any cuts to rural affairs in this budget will only pass thanks to Plaid Cymru, who prop this Labour Government up by abstaining on the budget. So, given these circumstances, Minister, do you genuinely believe that Welsh farmers and rural communities have confidence in this Welsh Government to fulfil its commitments to the agricultural sector?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, I do. I've lost count of the number of farmers who tell me they're very pleased they're in Wales and not in England. The Member needs to be a little bit more patient, for another couple of weeks, before the draft budget is laid, to get the answers to many of his questions.
What I will say is I'm not surprised by the results of the NFU survey. I absolutely understand that people do support our farmers. We all need to eat, and we look to our farmers to supply that food.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I, Minister, have lost count of the number of people who have thanked Plaid Cymru for at least trying to influence constructively Government policy where it's failing in terms of rural affairs, and not carping from the sidelines and just making up the numbers.
Minister, the First Minister told the Senedd last week that there is no special case to be made for farming when it comes to the Welsh Government's budget. Doyou agree?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, unfortunately, because of the deep financial situation and very dire financial situation we are facing, we've all had to make decisions that none of us went into politics to do. You'll be aware that the Cabinet prioritisethree areas: our public services, helping people with the cost-of-living crisis and the economy. So, you will have heard me say many times I am the voice that sits round the Cabinet table ensuring that we get our fair share, but these are deeply challenging times. As I say, I'll go back to what I said to Sam Kurtz: Members just need to be patient for another couple of weeks.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The reality is, of course, that the Welsh Government is asking more of the sector than it ever has before in terms of maintaining food production, in terms of tackling climate change, in terms of getting to grips with the nature emergency and a whole host of other public goods that you expect the sector to deliver. But if the budget is reduced, of course, and you're still asking for more, then surely that's an unsustainable trajectory and something has to give. So, under those circumstances, if the budget is cut, would you scale back on your ambitions—would you expect fewer outcomes, for example, from the sustainable farming scheme relative to any cut in budget? What aspect of your budget are you particularly keen to protect?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, again, you are speculating, and we all just need to be patient until the draft budget is laid. I do appreciate what you're saying about the climate and nature emergencies. We are all having to do more—every single one of us—in adapting to and mitigating both of those emergencies. But a lot of what we're asking farmers to do, they're already doing. So, we'll be going out to consultation on the sustainable farming scheme—you mentioned that one in particular. And the actions that will be part of a universal layer, many farmers will already be doing, and we are going to assist them to be able to demonstrate and explain how they are doing them. So, whilst I appreciate, of course, that we're all having to do more, I don't think it's a matter of asking individual farmers to do more, because they're probably doing it already.

Update to the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991

Hefin David AC: 3. What consideration has the Minister given to the UK Government's recent decision to update the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991? OQ60394

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Whilst I welcome the UK Government's decision to act at last, we need toensure any changes do not come at the detriment of the Welsh public or those providing support, particularly our rescue centres and local authority enforcement teams. My officials continue to work closely with their DEFRA counterparts.

Hefin David AC: The UK Government's decision to add the XL bully to the Dangerous Dogs Act has been broadly welcomed by families of two people in my constituency who were tragically killed in dog attacks in 2021 and 2022. However, in a news story earlier this week, the daughter of Shirley Patrick, who sadly died, said that she did not believe that this measure went far enough and that other potentially dangerous breeds should be added. There have also been concerns expressed by a senior vet that the ban could have the unintended consequence of making XL bullies more aggressive due to being kept inside with a lack of exercise and socialisation. Meanwhile, animal welfare charities have expressed concern that irresponsible breeders will still try and find ways around the incoming ban and perhaps move on to the breeding of a different type of aggressive status dog. So, with all this happening, what is the Welsh Government doing within its devolved powers to try and allay these concerns, for example, by updating breeding regulations for Wales and working with the grain of advice from the veterinary practices?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Whilst, as I said, I welcomed that action was at last being taken by the UK Government, I have also made it very clear that we weren't part of those discussions just before the announcement by the Prime Minister. I met with the DEFRA Secretary of State the day before, when she, at the time, was unaware of it as well. And, to me, there was always a health warning, if you like, that we needed to be incredibly careful that there weren't unintended consequences. I hear what people say and, clearly, any breed of dog can be dangerous, and it is really important that we take that into account when we are dealing with dogs. The ban on XL bullies is because of the disproportionate number of attacks that we've had from that breed of dog. In response to your last question, around the powers that we have as a Welsh Government, because we clearly do have many levers, you'll be aware of the recent summit I held. And I think I've just put out a written statement today on responsible dog ownership, working with our partners, working with the police, with local authorities, with the third sector, to make sure that we do use every power that we have and to push really hard on responsible dog ownership. Again, at the end of this week, I think it is, I will be coming forward with the next consultation around legislation in this area.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Firstly, can I echo the comments made by the Member for Caerphilly and about the heartbreaking news about those two deaths in Caerphilly following incidents with XL bully dogs? Jack Lis and Shirley Patrick were both killed by XL bullies, and we've seen numerous attacks across the board—six to 10 dog attacks in the UK can be attributed to the XL breed. I recognise that more needs to be done, like you've just said, to combat irresponsible dog breeders, which I hope the UK Government legislation will play a role in. But, Minister what steps is the Welsh Government taking to work with the UK Government to ensure that this update to the Act is properly enforced to alleviate the clear dangers of both the XL bully breed and irresponsible breeders? And I recognise that you've just mentioned that you hosted a summit and workshop on responsible dog owners. Could you outline what recommendations from that have been adopted to help with people's concerns? Thanks.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, I mentioned in my earlier answer that my officials are working very closely with DEFRA officials around the Dangerous Dogs Act being updated ahead of the ban coming through. So, that is one piece of work that's ongoing. I had hoped to have a conversation with the new Secretary of State in DEFRA last Monday, at our inter-ministerial group, but, unfortunately, he cancelled that meeting. Going back to the responsible dog ownership summit I held in October, I have just, I hope—in the last hour, I think—published a written statement. I wouldn't say any of the actions have been adopted; I think what we did was take a great number of recommendations and actions. We were very, very fortunate that Jack Lis's mother came and addressed us during that summit, which, as you can imagine, was incredibly powerful and gave us a lot of food for thought and what more we can do, working in partnership. We keep this absolutely under constant review. It's really important that we are able to prevent the dangers posed by irresponsible dog ownership, and that's why we always promote responsible dog ownership. DEFRA have also recently established a responsible dog ownership working group, to identify any additional measures that we have to be able to reduce dog attacks and promote responsible ownership. Again, my officials are linked into that.

Responsible Dog Ownership

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 4. Will the Government provide an update on its efforts to promote responsible dog ownership? OQ60363

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In October, I held a summit on responsible dog ownership and action on dangerous dogs, bringing together a wide range of partners to discuss further work. I will be setting out key findings from the summit and our next steps in a written statement, which has been published today.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch. Thank you for the statement that came out just a little while ago now. I just would like to understand what the key actions are going to be from that—the actual 'so what'. It's great to have a summit, and it's good to note that you're going to be having another summit in the new year—it's what will constituents in the south-east region and beyond see as a palpable change in what's going on in our communities. I welcome the fact that the XL bully is going to be added to the list, and that's happening. I was just wondering if you've given any consideration to the unintended consequences of that. Are there going to be other breeds that are going to come to prominence because they are used as potential trophies and that sort of thing, and, also, the unintended consequences of some dogs arriving in shelters, and that sort of thing going on? So, maybe you could outline the main consequences of the summit and what we will be able to see, going forward. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, in relation to the summit, I'm sure you haven't had time to look at the written statement in detail, but there's a list of recommendations. So, one of the things that we discussed at the summit and has certainly come forward as a recommendation is how police forces prioritise and report dog-related incidents. So, again, today, I've written to all the chief constables. I'm also writing to local authorities because they have the enforcement powers, as well. I think, on the dog breeding regulations, there's more work that needs to be done in relation to the dog breeding regulations, and we'll be looking at how we can update those. I think we need to have some formal recording of dog attacks and livestock worrying. That's a significant concern, certainly amongst our agricultural sector. So, there are several recommendations that come out, and we'll be looking at what actions we can take in the near future. I'm not sure if I'm going to have a summit in the new year, but certainly we will get back together, because there was so much good information that came out of that summit, we need to really tap into that.
Around the unintended consequences, I think the point you make about other breeds is really important, and what my officials have done is work with DEFRA counterparts to see is this the first step, and will there be another step later on once, on XL bullies, the ban comes in in February. I think, also, you make a good point around abandoned dogs. We don't want to see dogs abandoned, we don't want to see—. Already, our third sector rescue centres, as you know, are incredibly under pressure. So, it is about working with DEFRA to see what assessment and monitoring they did. You'll be aware of the funding they're bringing forward, but they're not huge amounts of funding. So, those discussions are ongoing, as I say, between our officials. As I say, we didn't really have a heads-up, unfortunately, that the announcement was going to be made. I've written to many Ministers over many years to try and get some action taken, because it was the rural crime teams, particularly, and the wildlife and rural crime co-ordinator, who were saying that the legislation—the Dangerous Dogs Act—really is not fit for purpose, and I don't think just this one step will make it fit for purpose. I think we need to continually monitor and consider.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: In Ireland, if you own a dog, you must have a dog licence. Residents can purchase an annual €20 or lifetime €140 licence for their dog. In Northern Ireland, dog owners pay £12.50 for a licence through local authorities, and in Calgary in the Canadian province of Alberta, there is even an online registration system for dogs and cats. Just over 8,000 stray dogs were picked up in Wales last year. Dog licensing could help with that, and it could mean that stray dogs can be reunited more easily with their owners, and it would address, I believe, many of the issues we raise regularly here in this Chamber. Additionally, this would be a new revenue stream that could help overstretched enforcement teams in our local authorities.Now, you've mentioned recently that this is a matter for the UK Government, but, as a result of your response, somebody wrote to me and said, 'Have a look at the Ireland model, Janet.' So, what steps are you taking to look at replicating dog licensing requirements in other nations, such as those I have referenced, by using local authorities to facilitate this? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm not sure if I've misunderstood you, but I've never said that dog licensing is a matter for the UK Government; we have the powers in relation to dog licensing, and I have asked my officials to have a look at this. For me, if somebody is paying hundreds of pounds for a dog, they can pay for a dog licence. However, I go back to unintended consequences. So, if you have a pensioner, I could say, who has a dog— it's great companionship, it helps with isolation, et cetera—they may not be able to afford a dog licence, so I think we need to look at it in the round. But it's certainly something that I've asked my officials to look at, because I do think you need to get to the end—what are we trying to achieve here? And what we want is everybody to be responsible. Responsible dog ownership has to be promoted. Would a dog licence help towards that? I have a personal opinion, but I think we need to make sure that we look at the evidence to see if that would be a good outcome.

Improving Roads in Dwyfor Meirionnydd

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 5. What consideration has the Cabinet committee on north Wales given to improving roads in Dwyfor Meirionnydd? OQ60359

Lesley Griffiths AC: At the Cabinet sub-committee for north Wales in October, Ministers had a presentation from the north Wales transport commission, ahead of the publication of their final report next week. The committee is keen to have further discussions with the commission when its final review is published.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response. The Minister will be aware that the bridge over the Dyfi river is about to open. But, in January, the A493 and the A487 near Pontarddyfi will be closed for almost a month, from 15 January onwards, as I understand it. Now, people in the area, particularly the Pennal and Bro Dysynni area, are extremely concerned that those roads are to be closed for a month. It will have a detrimental impact on their ability to travel to hospital in Aberystwyth, for example, and on the ability of workers to cross over to Machynlleth and north Ceredigion. Pupils and students who want to travel over the bridge will also face difficulties. And they are gravely concerned about the ability of ambulances to travel if there is an emergency in the Pennal area. So, what consideration have you given, or what pressure can you as a Government bring to bear, in order to ensure that the road isn't closed for all of that time? I wonder if it's possible to ensure that the workforce working on the road could work at night, to ensure that the road could be open, or to come to another solution so that the road doesn't have to be completely closed over a month from 15 January onwards?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. Well, we are aware of the concerns regarding the closure of the A493. The Welsh Government is working with the contractor, local authorities and stakeholders to ensure that all mitigation options are considered to minimise disruption. Specifically, I know the contractors' public liaison officer is currently consulting with emergency services, local schools, social services and health centres to gather their views. That work is ongoing, and feedback received will be used by officials and the project team to ensure that appropriate mitigation proposals are in place during the road closure.

Russell George AC: Minister, I'd be grateful if you could give me any indication as to what level the Cabinet committee on north Wales gives consideration to links to and from mid Wales. But also I support Mabon ap Gwynfor's question today. I fully endorse everything Mabon said, because I know myself, when the Dyfi bridge is closed due to weather issues over the winter period, that can lead to a huge diversion—a 30-mile diversion—which causes concerns for those working either side of the bridge and also the emergency services as well. I would be grateful if you could offer any further detail about when the new Dyfi bridge will open. From my understanding, from the last update I had from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, it was the end of January, beginning of February, but anything more specific than that—. I think the point that Mabon ap Gwynfor was making is that there's obviously a road closure period, but often the whole period is not always necessary, for it to be closed for that period of time, and I think that residents on both sides of the border would appreciate a bit more detailed and pinpointed information about how long the road could be closed for.

Lesley Griffiths AC: The information I've received from the Minister for Climate Change, whose policy area it is, is the end of January, beginning of February. So, I'm afraid that I can't give you any further information.

The Gwaredu Scab Project

Adam Price AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the progress of the Gwaredu Scab project in Wales? OQ60385

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Gwaredu Scab project has made significant progress since its launch in May, with over 0.5 million sheep treated at farms across Wales. The success of the programme is attributed to the collaboration between Gwaredu Scab, vets, unions and the farming community. We will share the Gwaredu Scab annual report in the spring.

Adam Price AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response, and it's good to hear about the progress that's being made in this area. There are some reports that I've received that do cause some concern. I've heard from local farmers, for example, that the service is difficult to get in touch with, that farmers, at times, have to wait for weeks before getting a call back, just to be told that the funding has come to an end. I've heard of other examples locally of farmers who've had a third of their flock dipped, but then, in asking about the rest, they are told that they would have to wait until April, which, of course, isn't ideal in a scheme which has the aim of eradicating scab entirely. And then, we hear about new farmers being added to the programme too. So, can the Minister make some enquiries with all the partners just to check whether it's a lack of resources or whether the resources are being used in the most efficient way?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes. Certainly. I know there was a very high uptake from our farmers and the team did have to pause new queries. We were dealing with cases that were already up and running, but we did have to have a small pause. But I know that work was resumed very quickly. I think it is a very popular scheme. I remember when I first came into portfolio—. You often hear me say that Government can't do things on their own, well, I think the sheep industry, that are responsible for getting rid of sheep scab, they couldn't do it on their own either. And I think it was really important that we were able to bring this scheme forward, and the Gwaredu Scab team are really successfully delivering. It is a three-year Welsh Government-funded programme to eradicate scab from Wales, and I think it is an excellent example of collaboration. But I will look specifically at the point you raise.

James Evans AS: Minister, as you know, I've talked to you about this long before I ever came here, about how devastating sheep scab is for our farmers right across Wales. We've heard from you today how tight the Welsh Government's budgets are, but I know you're well aware of exactly how sheep scab, if it's eradicated, can improve animal welfare, can improve prices at the farm gate as well. So, it would be interesting to understand from you today whether projects like this are going to be prioritised in the next budget setting process. Because if we do prioritise these budgets, it improves animal welfare and it also helps improve the outcomes for our farmers right across Wales as well.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, the project was started in May 2023. It is a three-year contract, and the funding is available for that.

Converting Animal Waste to Fertiliser

Jenny Rathbone AC: 7. What support does Welsh Government provide farmers to convert animal waste to fertiliser? OQ60379

Lesley Griffiths AC: Converting livestock manure into a product that can then be easily and economically transported is a significant challenge. The Welsh Government supports innovation to improve nutrient circularity and has, for example, provided significant financial support to Coleg Sir Gâr for the development of such technology through its ProsiectSlyri.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. That's really interesting, because we know that over 60 per cent of Dŵr Cymru's sewage network is combined waste, so it includes rainwater, domestic sewage and industrial waste, including farm sewage. So, when all this raw sewage has to be discharged into the seas to avoid the flooding of people's homes, we know that it contains things that people don't want in their water. So, if there's any way in which we can divert sewage that we could be using for nourishing the land rather than chucking phosphorus on it, that is a win-win.
And I have had conversations with forward-looking farmers who are really considering this as a way of reducing their carbon emissions. And there's always money to be made from muck. And given that sheep and cattle only eat—they don't eat meat—so, you know, these are really good nutrients, if only we could understand how to use them efficiently. So, I'd be very keen to hear more about the work that Coleg Sir Gâr is doing, because it seems to me that this is information that should be shared with all farmers to ensure that they are maximising the benefit that they could be making out of the products of their animal waste.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely. I would very much encourage you to visit Coleg Sir Gâr to see the work that they're doing. As you know, the control of agricultural pollution regulations is something that I'm working on with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement, and Cefin Campbell and I had a really positive visit to the college, probably about 18 months ago now. And I hadn’t been for 18 months previous to that, and I was incredibly pleased to see the work, the progress that had been made, and I'm sure if I went again, there would be further progress done.
We have the Tywi Farm Nutrient Partnership. That's a smart expertise-funded collaboration between the college and various industry partners, and they're looking at ways of reducing pollution, nutrient loss and recirculation of nutrients on farm. And separate to that, the college applied to a building capacity for collaboration call. They were awarded £62,000 and they’ve purchased some gas analysis equipment to provide them with the ability to be able to monitor and quantify relevant baseline gas emissions from agricultural sources. So, there's a significant amount of work going on in relation to this.

A Greyhound Racing Ban

Altaf Hussain AS: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on the steps the Welsh Government is taking to ban greyhound racing in Wales? OQ60384

Lesley Griffiths AC: I am committed to ensuring the welfare of racing greyhounds in Wales is not compromised. At the end of this week, I will launch our consultation on the regulation of animal welfare. This will gather evidence on the benefits and impacts of both legislating and banning greyhound racing in Wales.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. Those of us committed to seeing a greyhound racing ban in Wales want the consultation conducted and concluded as soon as possible. Sadly, with the licensing of Valley Greyhound Stadium, the suffering of racing dogs has been allowed to continue. Dogs frequently get into trouble at Valley and collisions are frequent. Indeed, in some races, as many as five out of the six dogs are recorded in the Greyhound Board of Great Britain's own results as having run into each other. According to GBGB’s most recent statistics, more than 5,000 greyhounds exit the licensed industry each year, many of whom will inevitably suffer from long-term physical and/or mental trauma. This leaves charities and the rescue sector to pick up the pieces, with more than two thirds of retired racing greyhounds currently handed over to such organisations at the end of their career, according to GBGB. Minister, with the majority of animal centres in Wales currently full, who will pick up the pieces from allowing this cruel sport to continue to operate in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, the Member doesn't have to wait much longer for the consultation. I will be launching it on Friday, and the regulation of animal welfare is absolutely a key commitment of our animal welfare plan. And our upcoming consultation, I think, is a really positive step towards licensing reform for establishments, exhibits, activities including animals and involving animals, and that includes racing greyhounds. I'm very pleased to be able to publicise the consultation here, and I would like all Members to do so. It will be a 12-week consultation, and what that will do is gather evidence on a wide range of issues. But one thing that I'm really keen to look at is the life of a greyhound—so, from birth, if it races, to retirement. It's really important that we have all the evidence.
So, the consultation will be launching on Friday, and I recognise that it is a very complex and emotive issue. Tighter licensing may see welfare improvements, but it wouldn't stop the racing of dogs, so there is a wide range of questions. Conversely, a phased ban may stop regulated racing, and that then could lead to an increase in unlawful events. So, it's really important that people put forward their views to the consultation so that we can have that evidence.

The Animal Welfare Plan

Vikki Howells AC: 9. Will the Minister provide an update on the delivery of the animal welfare plan for Wales? OQ60368

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We are making good progress to deliver our priorities for animal welfare, with our licensing and enforcement projects driving significant change. As I've just said, at the end of the week, I will launch our consultation on the regulation of animal welfare. Our commitment on requiring closed-circuit television in slaughterhouses will come into force next year.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. I'd like to start by offering a few words of thanks to all those Members who came along to the well-attended event that I sponsored for the League Against Cruel Sports the other week. The drop-in highlighted the awful suffering inflicted on pheasants and red-legged partridges when they are bred for slaughter in the game bird shooting industry. The animal welfare plan contains a very welcome commitment to restrict the use of cages, including for game birds. So, could you please give us an update on this work?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welfare of Farmed Animals (Wales) Regulations 2007 set down very detailed conditions under which farmed animals must be kept. There will not be any changes to the welfare legislation or our code of practice for the welfare of game birds reared for sporting purposes without consultation with our stakeholders. At the moment, it's not possible to provide a timeline for that consultation on any changes that could be brought forward. The use of management devices or practices that do not allow birds to fully express their range of normal behaviours should not be considered as routine, and keepers should work towards management systems not requiring such devices.

Agriculture Funding

Rhys ab Owen AS: 10. What assessment has the Minister made of the adequacy of UK Government funding for agriculture in Wales compared to previous EU funding? OQ60380

Lesley Griffiths AC: Through the rural development programme, we received a seven-year funding settlement, allowing long-term planning and support for a range of priorities in our rural communities. The UK Government left us £243 million worse off than if we had remained in the European Union, with no long-term budget certainty.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Gweinidog. As you have just mentioned, last month, the Minister for Economy spoke on the inadequacy of the replacement funding for the European Union funding. If I remember correctly, the whole point of Brexit was that it would liberate us from Brussels's bureaucracy. Our economy would grow and, therefore, our budget would be larger. However, as the economy Minister said, the shared prosperity fund is anything but liberating. It is small; it is rigid; and it is very narrow in scope.
As mentioned already, very little has been released about the Habitat Wales scheme, set to commence next year—not even a budget—leaving over 3,000 farms that have already applied for the scheme in the dark. When will the Minister announce how much has been allocated to the scheme?

Lesley Griffiths AC: [Inaudible.]—budget is laid.

David Rees AC: Finally, question 11, Llyr Gruffydd.

Reducing Agricultural Pollution in Waterways

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 11. How is the Welsh Government supporting farmers to reduce agricultural pollution in waterways? OQ60364

Lesley Griffiths AC: Supporting farmers to reduce pollution is a key theme running through all of our agricultural support programmes. This includes knowledge transfer provided through Farming Connect, bespoke grant schemes, the Habitat Wales scheme, as we transition to the future sustainable farming scheme, and cross-compliance rules that underpin the basic themes.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I wanted to raise a question along the same lines as the Member who has now left the Chamber, having asked his question earlier. The question I wanted to ask was on the £20 million that has been earmarked to assist farmers to provide infrastructure for meeting the regulations. Now, earlier, you failed to provide an assurance that you are confident that that £20 million will have been spent within the timetable before any regulations come into force, which would mean that you wouldn't then, as I understand it, be providing funding to meet the requirements of the regulations. Can you confirm, therefore, that you're confident that that £20 million will be spent before the beginning of August?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think you'll find that my phrase was 'up to £20 million' and I am confident that up to £20 million will be.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am generous today, Trefnydd. The last question I will call—Paul Davies.

Supporting the Agricultural Industry in Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 12. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the agricultural industry in Pembrokeshire over the next twelve months? OQ60360

Lesley Griffiths AC: Since 12 October we've made basic payment scheme 2023 advance payments worth over £12 million to farmers in Pembrokeshire. This is over 98 per cent of claimants. Full and balance payments will commence from 15 December. In addition, our Farming Connect service provides crucial support and advice to agricultural businesses in Pembrokeshire.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, thank you for that response. Now, one way to support the agricultural industry is, of course, to invest in future generations. Now, I'm sure you'll join me in congratulating Fishguard young farmers club, which has been recognised for its work supporting the local rural community at the National Federation of Young Farmers' Clubs achiever awards recently. The judges praised Fishguard YFC's recycle and reuse sport shoes appeal, which was developed in response to high child poverty rates in Pembrokeshire. They donated 43 pairs of trainers to local primary schools and their rugby club, allowing families to participate in local sports. So, will you join with me, Minister, in congratulating Fishguard YFC on their award, and tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support young farmers clubs in Pembrokeshire so that they can continue to play an important role in our communities, going forward?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely. I send my congratulations to Fishguard young farmers club. I'm never ever failed to be impressed by the fantastic work that young farmers clubs right across Wales do in their local communities. I hadn't heard about this particular one, but perhaps if the Member could write to me, I'd like to write to them to hear a little more about it. Diolch.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 3 is topical questions. This week's topical question will be asked by Gareth Davies.

The Closure of Pontins in Prestatyn

Gareth Davies AS: 1. What is the Welsh Government’s assessment of the impact of the closure of Pontins in Prestatyn on the local economy and tourism in Denbighshire? TQ930

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We know that this will be disappointing news for the staff and management in Prestatyn and surrounding communities. We stand ready to support any workers affected by the job losses and we'll work with Denbighshire County Council and other key partners to do just that.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your response this afternoon, Minister. We were shocked and saddened to hear of the closure of Pontins in Prestatyn just last Thursday. Of course, it was home to the bluecoats, the Holiday on the Buses film in 1973 and the UK snooker championships in years gone by, along with a myriad of other events. It was, in fact, the only Pontins outside of England and the only one in Wales, so you can sense the sadness that's being felt in the local community in the Vale of Clwyd. But admittedly, it had fallen into a state of decline in recent years, with the Brittania Hotels company running it into the ground, effectively, since acquiring the site back in 2011. They ignore myself, the local MP, Dr James Davies, and local councillors in letters and correspondence in providing details of the closure and future plans for the site, to the point where some staff found out on social media that they were losing their jobs, which I think is disgraceful—absolutely disgraceful.
Britannia have had a bad reputation for many years across their portfolio, and you only have to look on Tripadvisor and Google any of their parks or hotels to see for yourself that they're an apology for a holiday company. They have compounded my constituents and tourists to north Wales to perennial misery with the loss of up to 200 jobs and put a dent in the tourism fabric of the Vale of Clwyd in attracting the good people from England and other parts of the UK to enjoy the best of what Prestatyn has to offer. I'm sure that Fred Pontin and Billy Butlin would be turning in their graves if they could see the state of the place now, God bless them. So, can the Minister outline his comprehensive assessment of and reaction to this dire situation that the people of Prestatyn find themselves in currently, and what steps and action the Welsh Government is taking to maintain north Denbighshire as an attractive holiday destination and prevent the hollowing out of our local coastline in north Wales? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I do share the Member's extreme disappointment at the conduct of the company and the way they made the announcement. It is not what should happen. We know that there's a significant amount of employment, as well as additional seasonal employment from the site. We're looking to see if there is a recognised trade union on the site. It almost always makes it easier to deal with both the company and the trade union sides, and there are issues about protective awards that people need to get advice on. We'll carry on engaging, as we have done in previous unemployment events, and indeed there are there are Members of the Member's own party who have engaged with me in that way, openly and constructively, about what the Welsh Government can do to directly support staff, together with the Department for Work and Pensions. Jobcentre Plus and their local management are often good at responding to events and working directly with the Welsh Government on trying to provide the best kind of support available. I've had the same message of utter dismay from the leader of Denbighshire council, Jason McLellan. I'm looking to reach out to have a conversation with him to understand what we might be able to do together in a tripartite way with the council, DWPand, indeed, the Welsh Government arm as well. I'll make sure the Member is directly informed, if there is to be any meeting, in exactly the same way I've worked before I'll work with Members in different parties to see what we can do.
But we will, on your broader question, continue to invest in the north Wales coast. We've already provided £1.75 million in property development to support the redevelopment of the former Kwik Save site in Prestatyn. We've got further schemes across the coast in Rhyl as well, and the work we're doing alongside the council in that respect. So, wesee a positive future for north Wales tourism, including in the Member's constituency, that we will continue to want to invest in and to work alongside reliable partners that are here for the long run in investing in our communities and what north Wales has to offer.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Of course, our immediate thoughts are with those members of staff who have been let go without any warning and are now facing a highly uncertain Christmas period. With that, I think this case clearly underlines the importance of strengthening legal protections for workers and promoting unionisation within the workforce. I'd be interested to hear from the Minister whether he thinks that, actually, Pontins have breached their statutory responsibilities with respect to redundancies by announcing the closure of the Prestatyn site without proper notice and prior consultation with the employees.
But Britannia Hotels, of course, is a company that made £33 million of profit last year, and the litmus test for me now is whether they're willing to give something back to the community that has served them so well for many, many years. I'm wondering whether the Government is aware as to whether the company is happy to contribute financially towards the work of finding alternative uses for the site. Clearly, we need an all-year-round employment offer for people in the Prestatyn area, but if we find that that isn't possible, it's a large footprint. So, I'm just wondering whether the Government would consider allocating that land, or looking at options in terms of building social housing. We have 1,788 people in Denbighshire on the waiting list for a house. So, I'm just wondering whether we could be a bit creative in the way that we look at it. Yes, we need to look at employment and try and replicate opportunities for local people there, but there are other demands that this substantial footprint could actually meet, potentially.

Vaughan Gething AC: I'll try and deal with the points as they came. In terms of legal duties, there are legal duties around consultation ahead of redundancy, and there are specific circumstances where there is not a duty to consult. You point out the strength of the company in terms of the operating profit it's made over the last year. The bar is normally quite a significant one to get over that this was a surprise event and could not be anticipated, and obviates the clear legal duty to consult in advance.
There's a challenge there, if there isn't a recognised union on the site, about who represents and organises those people who might otherwise be entitled to a protective award. That is a practical thing that we'll need to discuss with the council and local advice services as well. It's a challenge about the way that employment law has changed, that you now need to pay to make claims, and that will put lots of people off doing so.
But turning to your point around the potential changes in the law, well, that is a matter that is reserved. In the 2019 Conservative manifesto, they claimed that they would actually change the law in a positive way. We're expecting an employment Bill that has not materialised. I'm confident that, at the next UK general election, there will be a manifesto pledge from my own political party to make changes in the world of work. We look forward to seeing if other people are prepared to recommit to what they said they'd do in the past, or not. But that won't help people in Pontins now, and we have a period of time before any such change can be made.
On your point around whether Britannia would contribute, my officials, as you would expect, have been in contact with Britannia, and I look forward to a response of some kind to understand their approach. I would not wish to give false hope that Britannia will put a significant amount in, but we are certainly looking to ask questions about what they are prepared to do. They don't appear to have a legal duty to do so.
And on your point about land use: the Government isn't in control of the land, and in terms of allocating that land, that's a matter for the local authority, and it also reinforces the point across north Wales and beyond of actually having an up-to-date local development plan to give you some kind of idea about how land use can be managed. For those authorities that don't have an LDP, there is the risk that, actually, you can find land you want to see used for economic benefit used for entirely different purposes. There is a conversation that we have with the council, of course, about whether they do want to see this try to be maintained as a potential tourism asset, or they want to see it for alternate use, but that is part of the conversation we would want to have with the local authority.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 4 this afternoon is the 90-second statements, and first of all, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Glenys Kinnock, who died on Sunday, was a respected Welsh Labour politician whose life was marked by a commitment to social justice, a belief in the power of education to transform children’s lives and a determination to speak up for the poorest.
Born Glenys Parry in 1944, she never forgot the values that shaped her upbringing as the daughter of a railway signalman in Holyhead. Glenys emerged from the shadow of her adored husband, Neil, to become a heavy political hitter in her own right. Her tenure as a Member of the European Parliament representing Wales from 1994 to 2009 showcased her commitment to developing nations, when she became president of the Africa, Caribbean, Pacific committee. Later, as Minister for Europe in the House of Lords, Glenys continued to play a key role in fostering international relations.
She was a role model for women: clever, forthright, stylish and really funny. She told me of the time when she was coming back on a plane from Brussels when the air hostess told her how proud they were that there was an all-women crew, including the pilot. ‘Oh, that’s marvellous', she said. ‘Can I come into the cockpit to say “hello”?’ 'Oh, Mrs Kinnock', she answered, 'we don’t call it the cockpit any more.' [Laughter.]
She was a pillar of strength for Neil, and he was a rock for her during her battle with Alzheimer’s, which she faced with the same grace, courage and dignity that defined her entire life. Family was front and centre in their lives, and she loved to be known as ‘Naini’ by her grandchildren. From Anglesey to Islwyn, from Brussels to Africa, she will be missed dearly.

Eluned Morgan AC: Rest in peace, my dear friend.

Mike Hedges AC: The two hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary of the Swansea canal: on Friday I attended a book launch commemorating the two hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary. Currently, only 5 miles of the Swansea canal is navigable, from Clydach to Pontardawe, and from Pontardawe to Ynysmeudwy. The Swansea Canal Society is working hard to restore the canal, supported by many volunteers. Alongside many Senedd colleagues, I attended the reopening of part of the Clydach section recently. The canal is now a popular trail and the towpath is part of the national cycle network.
The canal will never be reopened fully. The part that ran behind my grandparents’ house in Plasmarl is now the A4067. This industrial canal was built to serve collieries, ironworks and copper works in the Tawe valley, and the first section of the canal from Swansea to Godre’r Graig was opened in 1796, and the whole length of 16.5 miles was completed by October 1798. Civil engineering works included 36 locks and five aqueducts to carry the canal across major tributaries of the Tawe. When it was built, Lord North was British Prime Minister and John Adams Sr was United States President.
Finally, I’m pleased to see the restoration work being done, and I thank the many volunteers involved, and some of these people have been volunteering for decades and have worked really hard to try and bring this canal back into partial use. We must never lose our industrial heritage and we owe a debt to those who are working so hard to make it reusable.

Vikki Howells AC: Later this month we will be celebrating the hundred and twentieth anniversary of the birth of Jethro Gough. Born in Woodland Street, Mountain Ash, Jethro studied at the Welsh National School of Medicine. He was a first-rate student, achieving distinctions in numerous clinical fields, winning several prestigious prizes. He then embarked on an academic career largely spent in Cardiff, becoming professor of pathology after the second world war. From the late 1930s, Jethro became increasingly interested in the study of pulmonary illness, and coal workers' pneumoconiosis in particular. Up to this point, it was generally accepted that silica, found underground, was the cause of this cruel disease amongst workers in the coal industry. Gough studied the working conditions of coal trimmers in the south Wales docks, who never went underground. This led him to conclude that it was coal dust that caused pneumoconiosis, a groundbreaking discovery that gained Gough an international reputation. Importantly, this work was the basis of workmen's compensation legislation here in Britain and around the world.
Jethro was a founding member of the Royal College of Pathologists, and he was active in planning for the new University Hospital of Wales. He retired in 1969 and died 10 years later. The final word on Jethro should go to the National Union of Mineworkers, who recognised and praised his contribution to the well-being of miners around the world.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And finally, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. On 10 December, we will mark the date that the universal declaration of human rights was adopted 75 years ago. Human rights for everyone remain as important today as they were at that time. We are all citizens of one world, after all. Since the declaration was signed decades ago, legislation has been introduced on matters such as workers’ rights, the environment, political expression and minority rights. The declaration is a lodestar, which has laid the foundations for rights to a home, fair pay and health, regardless of your gender, your skin colour, your creed and whom you love.
This Thursday, the Welsh Centre for International Affairs will be holding an event at the Temple of Peace to celebrate and mark this very special anniversary. Speeches, performances and discussions will focus on the importance of human rights in Wales today and tomorrow. I’m sure that everyone in the Senedd would join me in wishing them all the very best with their work and their celebrations.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Pancreatic cancer

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 5 is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), pancreatic cancer. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM8385 Mark Isherwood, Mike Hedges, Jenny Rathbone, James Evans, Jane Dodds
Supported by Delyth Jewell, Joel James
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes:
a) that November is Pancreatic Cancer Awareness Month, and that 16 November 2023 is World Pancreatic Cancer Day;
b) that the survival rates in Wales and the UK still lag behind much of the rest of Europe and the world;
c) pancreatic cancer is tough to detect and that diagnosis takes too long with slow processes and multiple tests leaving people in the dark;
d) once spotted, people face huge obstacles getting the information and care they need to be well enough to have treatment with many people feeling written off with no support plan in place, and no help to manage symptoms; and
e) once diagnosed, only 3 out of 10 people get any treatment, the lowest proportion of all cancer types, and that half of people die within a month of diagnosis.
2. Understands that people with pancreatic cancer urgently need a faster, fairer, funded pathway throughout their diagnosis, treatment and care.
3. Supports Pancreatic Cancer UK’s efforts to ensure implementation of such a pathway.
4. Commends all of the charities and activist organisations and their dedicated supporters for their tireless efforts to raise awareness of pancreatic cancer, and wishes everyone involved with Pancreatic Cancer Awareness Month every success in their endeavours.

Motion moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Well, I'm pleased to bring forward this debate today, which was drafted alongside the charity Pancreatic Cancer UK. The motion, which I'm pleased to say has cross-party supporters here, proposes that the Senedd notes that November was Pancreatic Cancer Awareness Month and that 16 November 2023 was World Pancreatic Cancer Day, that the survival rates in Wales and the UK still lag behind much of the rest of Europe and the world, that pancreatic cancer is tough to detect and that diagnosis takes too long, with slow processes and multiple tests, leaving people in the dark, that, once spotted, people huge face obstacles getting the information and care they need to be well enough to have treatment, with many people feeling written off, with no support plan in place and no help to manage symptoms, and that, once diagnosed, only three out of 10 people get any treatment, the lowest proportion of all cancer types and that half of people die within a month of diagnosis. The motion also proposes that the Senedd understands that people with pancreatic cancer urgently need a faster, fairer funded pathway throughout their diagnosis, treatment and care.
Pancreatic cancer is the deadliest common cancer, affecting 500 people a year in Wales and 10,000 people a year across the UK. Three in five of those are diagnosed at a late stage. Sadly, over half will die within three months of diagnosis, and only 6 per cent in Wales will survive for more than five years. By comparison, the likelihood of surviving other cancers beyond five years in Wales is 50 per cent. These statistics are shocking and shameful and have barely changed in 50 years. However, with a fast and fair treatment and care journey and the smart investment to make it happen, more people would have a chance to survive.
Wales has lagged behind and now ranks thirty first out of 33 countries with comparable data on five-year survival for people with pancreatic cancer. Whilst outcomes for other cancers have improved, things have stayed the same for people with pancreatic cancer.The survival gap between pancreatic and other cancers has doubled in the last 50 years. Seven in 10 people diagnosed in the UK with pancreatic cancer are receiving no treatment, either because their cancer is detected too late or because their referrals take too long for treatment to be effective.

Mark Isherwood AC: Pancreatic Cancer UK themselves are a UK-wide charity providing support services, funding research and campaigning for better treatment, care and support for people with pancreatic cancer. They've recently launched their 'Don't Write Me Off' campaign, calling for a faster, fairer, fully funded treatment and care pathway for people with pancreatic cancer. Developed alongside a group of experts, healthcare professionals and people with lived experience, this pathway would improve treatment and survival rates and bring about better outcomes for people affected by pancreatic cancer. They state that more than 250 people across Wales could live longer and better lives over the next five years if this pathway was implemented now. Earlier and faster diagnosis is needed; people with pancreatic cancer have no time to wait. With no specific screening or tests and vague symptoms, which are often mistaken for less serious conditions, diagnosis for pancreatic cancer comes far too late for far too many. That was a quote from them.
The NHS Wales collaborative has developed a national optimal pathway for pancreatic cancer—no doubt the Minister will refer to this—but we're still waiting for the Welsh Government to fully fund and implement this. Pancreatic Cancer UK therefore calls on the Welsh Government to implement the Welsh national optimal pathway for suspected and confirmed pancreatic cancer, which ensures a 21-day treatment standard from diagnosis of pancreatic cancer to first treatment, and to provide long-term funding to health boards so they can implement and sustain the pathway for pancreatic cancer to help ensure earlier and faster diagnosis for patients. As they state, too many people with pancreatic cancer aren't getting the support and care they desperately need—they're left fighting the system and the care they get depends too much on where they live and where they get their treatment.
One example is prescriptions for pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy, PERT, which is a simple tablet rapidly available from pharmacies that replaces enzymes, so, even when the pancreas stops working, food can still be digested. It reduces debilitating symptoms and helps build strength for treatment, but more than a third of patients in Wales don't receive it, yet the guidance is for all patients to be prescribed this to improve their quality of life. We need to know what assessment the Minister has made of the merits of implementing the national optimal pathway for pancreatic cancer, what assessment she's made of pancreatic cancer survival rates in Wales in relation to both other nations in the UK and other comparable nations, and what steps she's taken to improve them, what assessment she's made of the merits of undertaking an audit of the pancreatic cancer workforce in Wales, and whether the Welsh Government will commit to funding specialist pancreatic cancer roles in every health board now or in the future. The Welsh Government should commit to funding specialist pancreatic cancer roles in every health board so that everyone can receive advice, care and support from a dedicated expert professional from the point of diagnosis.
Planning and funding an effective workforce is essential because people with pancreatic cancer need fast, high-quality wraparound support and treatment from the moment they contact their GP onwards. We know that there are shortages across almost every role connected to cancer, from the bedside to the lab, and that the UK will be short of 4,000 cancer nurses by the year 2030. It's now two years since Macmillan Cancer Support warned that Wales is facing a cancer nursing crisis that could leave soaring numbers of patients without the right medical care and support, with the number of specialist cancer nurses in Wales needing to increase by 80 per cent to support the 230,000 people predicted to be living with cancer in Wales by the end of this decade. There is concern, however, that there remains a lack of understanding in Government of where these workforce gaps currently are and how they directly impact people with the deadliest common cancer. The Welsh Government must take this opportunity to carry out a comprehensive audit of the pancreatic cancer workforce, identify gaps and act urgently to fill them. They must then utilise learnings from the audit to allocate sustainable funding to ensure the optimal care pathway can be implemented and save lives.
Investing in world-class research funding into pancreatic cancer research has also been too little for too long across the UK. Even 10 years ago, only £5 million was going into research for pancreatic cancer every year, compared to over £30 million for leukaemia. An investment of £35 million every year across the whole UK, including Wales, is needed to deliver vital improvements to transform survival for pancreatic cancer. We know this approach works, because funding for research into leukaemia, which has a very similar incidence rate to pancreatic cancer, has almost doubled since the year 2000, and with this has come a 16 per cent fall in mortality. Pancreatic cancer could be the next disease to benefit from improved survival rates through increased research funding.
Pancreatic Cancer UK have so far themselves invested over £12 million into pancreatic cancer research, and, going forward, have committed to funding even more pancreatic cancer research every year. Wales is already home to exciting and groundbreaking research for pancreatic cancer. In Cardiff, for example, they've funded over £0.25 million of research by Dr Beatriz Salvador Barbero, who is investigating the biological changes that take place in early pancreatic cancer development. Understanding what causes pancreatic cancer to initiate and progress could help us improve the early detection of the disease and open up new avenues of treatment to block these processes, increasing chances of survival.
The data available on cancer care in Wales is considerably more limited than that of other UK nations. For example, the only data available on social deprivation is in relation to mortality rates. Much of the data gap relates to looking at outcomes and treatment and care pathways in relation not only to deprivation but ethnicity, disability and LGBTQI+ identity. Without this data, it's difficult to identify the impacts of health inequalities and see clearly where people are having different experiences of care in relation to their background. Pancreatic Cancer UK calls for the Welsh Government to publish data at the same level as England, where anonymisation can be retained. They also encourage the Welsh Government to go even further, providing data on ethnicity, disability and LGBTQI+ identity, in order to understand the impacts of these characteristics on the experience of cancer care in Wales. Setting a higher bar for data around cancer care experiences could not only make Wales a leader in the UK for understanding and acting upon health inequalities in cancer care, but also recognise that people with pancreatic cancer urgently need a faster, fairer, funded pathway throughout their diagnosis, treatment and care. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer; also thanks to Mark Isherwood, who invited me to support this debate. I would like also to thank Pancreatic Cancer UK on the work they have done alongside pancreatic cancer experts to develop a consensus on what good care looks like for people with pancreatic cancer. I support the optimal care pathway that has been developed, which sets out what should happen on diagnosis, treatment and care.
Pancreatic cancer is one of those cancers that is difficult to detect. It is not unique in this; other difficult-to-detect cancers include kidney, ovarian, brain tumours and liver cancer. Because of its location being surrounded and obscured by internal organs, it means that pancreatic tumours are impossible to see or feel during a routine medical examination. Making diagnosis even more difficult is the fact that, in its early stages, pancreatic cancer is a so-called silent disease and causes no symptoms. There is a need for those suffering from pancreatic cancer to have a faster, fairer, funded pathway through diagnosis, treatment and care. People with pancreatic cancer need to be treated immediately. Half the people identified with pancreatic cancer die within three months of diagnosis, because diagnosis normally happens at stage 4. We need specialist pancreatic cancer roles in each health board, so that everyone gets advice, care and support from dedicated experts from the day of diagnosis.
One of the problems with pancreatic cancer is that the symptoms—jaundice, yellow eyes, itchy skin, changes to stool and urine, digestive issues, weight loss, abdominal or back pain, blood clots in legs or lungs or a sudden onset of diabetes—could indicate many other conditions. In fact, I'm sure that most people in this room today can identify with actually having one of them at any time. Yellow eyes, itchy skin, persistent stomach pain and weight loss shouldn't be taken lightly, as these symptoms are the most likely to indicate pancreatic cancer.
The cause of pancreatic cancer is often not known, and a person with an average risk of pancreatic cancer has about a 1 per cent chance of developing the disease, but for people in families that are at a high risk of getting pancreatic cancer, newer tests for detecting pancreatic cancer early may help. The two most common tests used are endoscopicultrasound and MRI. Pancreatic cancer is a rare kind of cancer that normally begins in the lining of the ducts to the pancreas. There are rarely any early signs and when they do appear, the cancer is usually advanced, often to stage 4. This is because the pancreas is deep inside the body and early tumours just don't get identified.
Smoking, diabetes, chronic pancreatitis, inflammation of the pancreas, family history of pancreatic cancer and certain genetic syndromes can increase your chances of getting pancreatic cancer. There are signs, which I mentioned earlier, that could indicate pancreatic cancer, but they could indicate a whole range of other things, and that's where one of the big medical problems is: we'd have every GP surgery full of people with one of more of those conditions coming along and saying, 'This is what I'm suffering from, is this pancreatic cancer?' And I think in 99 per cent of cases, it won't be. Unfortunately, in 1 per cent, it will.
Persistent abdominal pain is because the pancreas is stationed in your abdomen behind your stomach. The patient experiences a dull pain in the stomach with mounting pressure on the organs. Latterly, it can turn more painful and persistent. It is considered the most common symptom of pancreatic cancer, but for the diagnosis of pancreatic cancer, like all other cancers, we need a blood test. We desperately need research in this area. While blood tests may signify the possible presence of the disease, they cannot lead to a definitive pancreatic cancer diagnosis. Additional tests are necessary to confirm the diagnosis.
There is no screening for pancreatic cancer, unlike, for example, bowel cancer—which I did recently, and to everybody else in this room, when you reach your sixtieth birthday, welcome to bowel cancer screening—cervical cancer and breast cancer. Because of this, patients usually present with very advanced stage cancers, having rapidly progressive disease and a poor prognosis. There's no national screening programme for pancreatic cancer because it's so uncommon, so, many people would have unnecessary tests, and the benefits do not outweigh the costs. But people with an increased risk of pancreatic cancer may be able to have tests to look for signs of pancreatic cancer.
As the Minister is aware, I chair the cross-party group on rare diseases. There are an awful lot of rare diseases, including some cancers. We desperately need a blood test to identify pancreatic cancer and other cancers, and an agreed treatment method to ensure the best possible outcome. Now, the Minister is not going to be able to produce a blood test, but we should be supporting universities and their academic research to work on producing these blood tests. Not enough people have it for it to be commercially viable for the big companies and the pharmaceutical industry to just go about doing it. We need to support the universities doing the research, get a blood test, and if we had a blood test for all cancers, it would be a much better world.

Delyth Jewell AC: Pancreatic cancer robs people of their loved ones. It steals them away. Five-hundred people will likely be diagnosed with pancreatic cancer every year in Wales, but 300 of them will be diagnosed at a late stage. A late stage is not good news for pancreatic cancer: it is aggressive, it is invasive. Over half of those people will be taken by this cruel disease less than three months after their diagnosis. That is how stark this situation is: 300 people every year getting told the worst news of their lives and, within three months, they've gone.
That's what happened to my mamgu. She'd been unwell over Christmas. She hadn't been herself. She'd been complaining about stomach aches, but she didn't like to bother the doctor. I remember on Christmas Day that she had come over to our house wearing a shawl over her head. I'd never seen her wearing a shawl like that. She looked so frail. Within weeks, well, less than that, days, her condition got horribly worse. She went into hospital, and she was in so much pain; her fingers had swollen so badly, they had to cut the wedding ring off her finger. She slipped away, and all they could do was manage the pain. I don't want anyone to have to go through what she went through, what my mother went through in losing her like that.
But that story isn't rare, it's horribly usual with pancreatic cancer. Only 6 per cent of patients with this disease in Wales will survive more than five years; that means 94 per cent don't. And these statistics I've quoted have all but stayed—as we've heard—stubbornly still for 50 years. We have hardly improved people's plights. A grandmother who'd have passed away in 1973 would have faced similar odds to her granddaughter getting diagnosed with the same disease today. We lag behind most of the world in survival rates. Wales ranks thirty-first out of 33 countries; that isn't a league table we should be flunking.
The slogan that Pancreatic Cancer UK has chosen for its campaign this year—as we've heard—is 'Don't Write Me Off', acknowledging through those words the fact that 70 per cent of pancreatic cancer patients in the UK receive no treatment, either because their referrals take too long or because their diagnosis has come so cruelly late. Pancreatic Cancer UK have sent me the testimony of a woman called Fern who lives in my region, and who lost her mother to this horrible disease. She said, and I'm quoting her words,
'My mum Veronica was a healthy 46-year-old, with no history of any medical issues. Around December 2010, she started having pains in the stomach. This went on for three months. She visited the GP, who suggested it could be a gall bladder issue. She started losing her appetite and a lot of weight, so she went back. They said they would refer her. By August 2011, she was still unwell, and after a fall and a trip to our local hospital, they started doing tests. By this time, she had pneumonia. They did a CT scan, and our worst fears were confirmed: she had stage 4 pancreatic cancer. Initially, they thought they could do a biopsy, but mum was too weak. She stayed in St Joseph's Hospital in Malpas, Newport, where she received the best care possible. She got married on 25 September, and peacefully passed away on 26 September, at just 47 years old.'
Forty-seven is no age to go. I'm making a plea to the Government, please, to implement a national optimal pathway for suspected or confirmed cases of pancreatic cancer, which would ensure the first treatment would be given within 21 days of someone getting diagnosed; any longer, you start to lose people horrifically quickly. We need funding to sustain that pathway, given to health boards, and, yes, to universities, to research into, to make sure that there is a blood test. I agree that would be such a beacon of hope, to be able to have something like that. And we need training and more support for GPs, to help them notice the symptoms—these symptoms that are so cruelly difficult to notice. But when people are diagnosed, they should be getting prescriptions, as we've heard, like PERT, pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy, a tablet you can get to replace enzymes, to make sure that when the pancreas stops working, you can still digest food—simple tablets like that, but it can really improve people's quality of life. And we need to invest far greater into research, to improve early detection, to widen screening, to save more people's lives. That's what it comes down to: fewer people dying. Pancreatic cancer shouldn't be stealing so many lives, a diagnosis shouldn't be so deadly. I'm begging the Government to improve this, for the sake of all those people whose lives could be saved.

James Evans AS: I'm proud to co-submit this debate today, along with my colleague Mark Isherwood. Pancreatic cancer is a sinister disease. It has claimed too many lives of too many people, leaving a permanent mark in families right across Wales. Pancreatic cancer is a formidable disease, known for its aggressive nature and often late-stage diagnosis. In Wales, the incidence of pancreatic cancer has been on the rise, making it the eleventh most common cancer in the country. It affects 500 people a year in Wales—that's 500 mothers, 500 fathers, siblings and friends of people across our country.
The mortality rate associated with pancreatic cancer is particularly distressing, making it the fifth most common cause of cancer-related deaths here in Wales. The fact that three in five people are diagnosed at a late stage is particularly concerning, as early detection is crucial for better treatments and outcomes. Late-stage diagnosis often limits the availability of treatment options, and contributes to the low survival rates associated with this type of cancer. The quick progression of the disease is evident in the statistics: over half of diagnosed individuals will succumb to the cancer within months. This rapid decline further emphasises the importance of early detection and interventions. It underscores the critical need for enhancements in research and medical interventions, and public health initiatives aimed at improving the outcomes of individuals affected by this disease.Furthermore, the likelihood of surviving cancers beyond five years is typically 50 per cent, but for pancreatic cancer here in Wales, it's just 6 per cent—a stark contrast with the outcomes of people who are suffering from other cancers across Wales.
Addressing pancreatic cancer, as I'm sure the Minister will allude to, takes a multifacted approach. It requires increasing public awareness, increases in research funding, and efforts to develop more effective screening methods, and the blood test that Mike and others have talked about is really, really important. And collaborative efforts from healthcare professionals, from our GPs having more awareness of the disease, and actually being willing to send people for referrals, is very important. And that's why we need to make sure that our researchers and universities are given all the tools they need to do research into this disease.
It's alarming that seven in 10 people in the UK diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, as Mark Isherwood said, receive no treatment. This lack of intervention is attributed to either late-stage detection or prolonged referrals going back and forth, back and forth, both of which contribute to the ineffectiveness of some treatments. As I said, half of those diagnosed with the disease will succumb within months. This just emphasises the deadly consequence of delays in detection and treatment. And this is why it underscores the urgent need for improvements in our healthcare system, to ensure timely and effective interventions that ultimately improve the outcomes for people battling with this type of cancer.
I believe that prevention is always better than curing. That's why awareness campaigns are crucial to educating the public about the risk factors associated with the disease. Lifestyle factors, such as smoking and obesity, have been linked to an increased risk of pancreatic cancer, making prevention and early intervention a key component of our collective battle. And that is why I'm very pleased that the Government is doing what they can to look at smoking and the obesity strategies coming forward, because it will affect the outcomes of our public health here in Wales.
So, another area that I think is really, really important is also the mental health support that is available to people suffering with cancer here across Wales. And it normally isn't actually trained mental health professionals that we need; there is a third sector there as well who can provide help and support to people, but not only to the individual who is suffering with pancreatic cancer, but also to those family members who are supporting that individual. It can be a very, very stressful time for anybody helping somebody through that disease, and I would encourage anybody who is out there listening to this debate to seek out the help and support that is available for mental health conditions here across Wales.
So, as I've said—. I'll conclude now, Deputy Llywydd, by saying that I would encourage the Government to do all they can to address pancreatic cancer. I know budgets are very, very tight from the Government, but we must do what we can do make sure diseases like this are prevented here in Wales and don't take hold of too many lives here in Wales.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to have the opportunity to say some words in this debate. I'm also grateful to the Member who has proposed today's motion, and those who have supported it in it coming to the Chamber. A number of constituents have been in touch with me following this motion being tabled in the Senedd. They've asked me to raise important issues to them. Many of those have been rehearsed by colleagues this afternoon, in particular the need for funding to implement the collaborative pathway developed by the NHS Wales collaboration. And I'd be grateful, in the response from the Minister, if she would address that particular issue when that time comes. They've also raised with me the need, when the implementation of that pathway is happening, to make sure that, wherever you live in Wales, your journey on that pathway is exactly the same throughout the nation.
Deputy Presiding Officer, many of the residents who got in touch with me were very brave to share their own experiences and their own journeys with this cancer. I don't have enough time this afternoon to raise them all, but I just wanted to use one quote that was emailed to me from a constituent, and I quote directly from that e-mail:
'This is a deadly killer cancer with aggressive progression, and late-stage diagnosis means it is too late, with life expectancy being in weeks, not years. There should be a pancreatic cancer pathway from the point of suspicion and referral to diagnosis in 14 days, and, ideally, less.'
Deputy Presiding Officer, I agree fully with that constituent who wrote to me to share their experience. And I agree fully with the other constituents who have been in touch as well, and it's why I will be supporting today's motion at the vote later on.

Heledd Fychan AS: I also express my thanks to Mark Isherwood for putting forward this debate. I think it's really important that we do hold these debates to reflect, but also in the hope that some people might raise awareness in terms of the symptoms—they may sound familiar in terms of some of the symptoms that we have been raising today. We are joined in the gallery today by survivors—two survivors—of pancreatic cancer, but also, unfortunately, people who've lost relatives because of this very cruel cancer, and, as we've heard, absolutely devastating. And, unfortunately, as was shared with myself and Delyth earlier, some have also lost multiple family members. It's just so, so cruel. Thank you for taking the time to be here today, but also sharing with us your personal stories, and also for all the campaigning that you're doing to raise awareness and to try an ensure that there is money available for research, and also that more people are aware and are able to be diagnosed earlier, and also, then, hopefully, that we can change those statistics around. We heard so powerfully from Delyth Jewell how little things have changed in 50 years, and why that's against the odds, when it comes to other cancer stories. So, thank you for being here. And I'm sorry that you have to campaign so much, but it really does make a difference.
I haven't been personally affected. I thought you spoke so powerfully, Delyth, and thank you for sharing that. But I was also moved similarly to Jack by the amount of constituents that wrote to me and expressed their personal stories as well. I think it's also the rapidness around how quickly this cruel disease progresses—. It's one of the things that leaves families in shock, and also the distress in terms of their relatives—. That's one of the things that came through clearly to me, and also the fact that people are presenting, perhaps, in A&E in agony. And we know how overstretched our accident and emergency rooms are, but it shows the desperation that people are under, that they are in so much pain that that, unfortunately, is the route, often, to diagnosis.
As the regional Member for South Wales Central, I was pleased to read in the briefing provided by Pancreatic Cancer UK about some of the exciting and groundbreaking research that's happening in Cardiff. They've funded Dr Beatriz Salvador Barbero, and she's investigating the biological changes that take place in early pancreatic cancer development. It's important that we do continue to invest in research, and all the fundraising and everything that's happening is fantastic in terms of that progress, but, unfortunately, until we ensure that pathways and so on are in place, until we raise awareness, and until even further investment is made in research, those bleak outcomes will remain.
So, I'm pleased to be able to offer my support to the motion today, but also I would like to extend my sympathy to all those families who have suffered a loss. I would also like to express my solidarity with all survivors, because perhaps the cancer has been put at bay, but in terms of the impact on your life as a survivor, that's something that stays with you. I'm inspired by the campaigning that's being done, and inspired by everybody that has turned their pain into action and been brave enough to share their heartbreaking stories with us. That's why we can't write anybody off, and that's why I'm pleased that we continue to debate, but also push for the changes that are needed.

Joel James AS: I'd like to start by thanking my colleague Mark for raising such an important topic for debate, and to thank all those who worked tirelessly to help raise awareness of rare cancers such as pancreatic cancer, and campaign to improve the outcome of sufferers. I also want to add my personal thanks to my colleague Delythfor raising her own personal experiences of this terrible disease, and it really hits home to us in the Chamber the impact that it has.
Shockingly, Dirprwy Lywydd, 43 per cent of pancreatic cancer diagnoses happens in A&E departments and, by this point, unfortunately, it is often too late to be able to treat it. Research also tells us that patients will visit their GP an average of four times before being diagnosed and, incredibly, there's even been an instance where one patient in the UK visited 23 times before they received their diagnosis.
As we have already heard, because most people are diagnosed at stage 4, when the disease has metastasised, there is an overall poor prognosis. However, if caught very early, pancreatic cancer has the potential to be cured. It has been found that up to 10 per cent of patients who receive an early diagnosis have become cancer free after treatment. Therefore, Dirprwy Lywydd, I welcome the note of this debate to highlight that people with pancreatic cancer urgently need a faster and fairer funded pathway throughout the diagnosis, treatment and care. Patients whose tumours are found before they have metastasised or become locally advanced tend to have longer survival rates on average, because their tumours can usually be surgically removed and therefore every small delay can have a big impact on their overall outcome.
Tragically, many patients who are diagnosed with pancreatic cancer lose their life within a matter of weeks or months, and it is harrowing to hear their stories, especially when they highlight how long it took to get their diagnosis. With this in mind, I would like to share the story of Claire Stevens who lived in my region, and I'm grateful to her daughter, Nina, for allowing me to. Claire presented to her GP with back pain, weight loss and loss of appetite, and although she did receive an ultrasound scan that found nothing, it was only after she accessed private medical care was she able to receive a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer. Unfortunately, the four months it took between first presenting to her GP and diagnosis meant the cancer had become inoperable as it had fused with her main artery, and Claire, who was only 56, lost her life 10 months after her diagnosis. Sadly, Claire’s story, as we've heard, is quite common for those suffering from pancreatic cancer, and I believe, as do many others, that her outcome could have been different if she was able to access that CTC scan early on. And I would like to add my voice to the others here and the charities out there who are calling to improve diagnosis pathways, with particular emphasis on speed, because the sooner patients receive treatment, the better their long-term outcomes are.
Medical research is improving all the time, as I recently witnessed first-hand at Cardiff University, where researchers, such as Dr Beatriz Salvador Barbero, as my colleagues in this Chamber have already highlighted, are conducting groundbreaking work. I am also aware that there are clinical trials currently under way on a pancreatic cancer vaccine that can help treat stage 4 pancreatic cancer. This vaccine is made up of an inactivated pancreatic cancer cell that has been altered in such a way that they're incapable of growing and that they release certain molecules that actually encouragethe body’s own immune cells to kill the cancerous cells. Vaccine therapy of this type can improve the ability to treat the metastatic disease, because the vaccine cells are able to hunt out all the cancer in the body, and I hope that we will soon be in a position where we can access therapies like this in our hospitals.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to highlight the excellent work of Pancreatic Cancer UK and their awareness campaigns that aim to increase public awareness in Wales through healthcare professions and through those who are in the best position to diagnosis. The truth is, the outcomes of a sufferer of pancreatic cancer will depend on three things: the ability to recognise symptoms, such as mid-back pain, upper abdominal pain, a change in bowel habits, or unexplained weight loss; the GPs ability to refer the patient quickly and to get them on the correct pathway; and, finally, the speed of diagnosis. We can do so much more in all these areas, and we can drastically improve the chances of pancreatic cancer survival, as this is the same for many other cancers. Therefore, I urge everyone here to support the motion that's laid before the Senedd in this debate. Thank you.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by thanking Members for putting this issue on the Senedd floor. In particular, I'd like to thank Members for sharing the examples of the dreadful suffering that so many have gone through with this dreadful condition. We know we must do better to provide hope for people who are given this dreadful diagnosis.
I'd like to join with all Members of the Senedd to recognise November was Pancreatic Cancer Awareness Month. It is important, as so many people have mentioned, that we discuss this condition that affects around 550 people a year here in Wales. It's particularly important that we focus on pancreatic cancer because, unlike many cancers, pancreatic cancer outcomes, as many have stated, the outcomes remain poor, not just in Wales, but right across the world. Now, this is the sad reality of a cancer that tends to only become apparent when it's in the latter stages and when treatment options are more limited. Pancreatic Cancer UK advise that around half of the people die within three months of diagnosis. For many people with pancreatic cancer, the treatment options available will be to maintain a quality of life for as long as possible. Now, this is vital care that makes a huge difference to many people facing the worst possible news, but I recognise that this is not where any of us would want to be.
Pancreatic Cancer UK, in the motion today, is calling for the implementation of a national pancreatic cancer pathway, and I'm pleased to say that, here in Wales, we have been able to introduce an accelerated pathway for pancreatic cancer. The accelerated pathway is supporting health boards to join up different clinical teams in different clinical settings and organisations. It's a description of a patient journey, so that every health board can plan consistent services, that every clinical team knows what's expected of them, and every patient gets consistent care. The national pathway includes a requirement for patients to go straight to test, bypassing the need for an out-patient appointment first. This is something that pancreatic cancer called for in their recent report.
We've also taken action in other areas that Pancreatic Cancer UK have called for. We've increased operating capacity at our specialist surgical centre in Swansea, and we've invested in the new cancer information system so that clinical records are visible across all settings and organisations, to join up patient care between clinical teams. We're the first country in the UK to have its whole population covered by rapid diagnostic centres. Across Wales, if a GP suspects someone may have cancer, but their symptoms are vague and don't meet the cancer referral criteria, they can get rapid access to a one-stop diagnostic service. For pancreatic cancer specifically, as many Members have emphasised, we know that symptoms can be vague and easy to miss, which often contributes to that late diagnosis, which means that there are limited treatment options. For that reason, access to rapid diagnostic centres is a really important step to try to ensure that when there is uncertainty, GPs have an additional referral option to rule cancer in or out.
We're building our cancer workforce, having invested in more training places every year for the last three years in oncology. We're working with health boards to improve access to pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy—PERT—by changing formularies and working with primary care to provide guidance and support on prescribing, and I've approved the introduction of a clinical audit of pancreatic cancer care, which reports publicly our data and compares centres across England and Wales so that we can stimulate quality improvement and improve outcomes.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Eluned Morgan AC: We're also providing training and support to make decisions for every GP practice in Wales on identifying symptoms and referring for cancer. These will be available on all desktop computers. We will be improving support for patients by investing in primary care, diagnostic care and specialist care. Excuse me. These will be co-ordinated and supported—. Sorry. These will be co-ordinated and supported—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Do take a moment, Minister. Janet Finch-Saunders has gone to fetch a little bit more water for you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Thank you very much. We will be improving care for patients by investing in primary care, diagnostic care and specialist care. These will be co-ordinated and supported by our national optimal pathway and supervised nationally using high-quality data.
I'd like to conclude by thanking Members for proposing such an important debate today. I think I should stop there, I'm afraid, but thank you very much to all of you, and I do acknowledge and recognise the work that you have done.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'd like to thank you for your work in particular in bringing our attention to this important issue. We know there's more work to do, but we are absolutely determined to do all we can to tackle this very, very dreadful disease.
Llywydd, would you mind if I just take a few minutes—just a minute—just to update you on a particular report that we've heard, that a car has driven through the front entrance of Wrexham Maelor Hospital? No injuries have been reported, and there appears to be no damage to the structural integrity of the building. I've asked the health board to keep me informed of the developments, and I'd like to thank the staff for their immediate response in Betsi. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister, and thank you for your efforts to complete your response to the debate and that final statement as well. Mark Isherwood now to respond to the debate.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, thank you very much, everybody, for contributing. I'll try and do justice to those contributions in what little time remains.
Mike Hedges, who spoke, amongst other things, as chair of the cross-party group on rare diseases, made the point that pancreatic tumours are impossible to see or feel during a routine medical examination and why people with pancreatic cancer need to be treated immediately. He referred to the two most common tests for pancreatic cancer, which has few early signs and is often diagnosed late. Signs that indicate pancreatic cancer, he said, can also indicate many other conditions. We need blood tests and desperately need research into this area, he said, and pointed out there's no screening for pancreatic cancer, unlike many other cancers, and we need an agreed treatment method for surgical best outcomes.
Delyth Jewell said pancreatic cancer robs people of their loved ones. It's aggressive, it's cruel and it's invasive. She—and thank you for this—shared a personal story of loss of a loved one, and said,
'all they could do was manage the pain',
and of another who died at just 47 years old, I think you said, and made a plea to the Welsh Government to implement the national optimal pathway for all those whose lives could be saved.
James Evans referred to pancreatic cancer as a sinister, formidable and aggressive disease, the eleventh most common cancer in Wales and the fifth most common cause of cancer deaths in Wales. He said early detection is crucial for better treatment and outcomes. He contrasted the 6 per cent survival rate after five years with outcomes for people with other cancers in Wales. He said that prevention is better than cause and pointed out that smoking and obesity are linked to increased risks of pancreatic cancer. He talked about the importance of mental health support for people diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and their families and loved ones, and called on the Welsh Government to do all it can for people with pancreatic cancer.
Jack Sargeant referred to the need for funding for, and implementation of, the NHS Wales national optimal pathway for pancreatic cancer, and shared some stories from constituents who had contacted him. Heledd Fychan pointed out—and I add my welcome—that we've been joined in the gallery by two survivors as well as relatives who have lost loved ones to pancreatic cancer. She said that we need to increase awareness as well as funding, including research, where little change has happened over 50 years, and thanked, again, us all for bringing this important issue to attention. She emphasised how quickly the disease progresses and the impact of that on both patients and their loved ones, and extended sympathy to all those families who have suffered loss, and to all survivors, and concluded by saying, quite rightly, that we can’t write anyone off.
Joel James referred to 43 per cent of pancreatic cancer diagnoses happening in accident and emergency, often too late for treatment, with many visiting many times before diagnosis, although, with early diagnosis, people can survive. He shared the story of Claire Stevens, who only received diagnosis after accessing private medical care, but it was too late to save her. We need to be able to identify symptoms, he said, including mid-back pain and changed bowel movements, and we can do so much more in all these areas.
The Minister, concluding, said we must do better to provide hope for people given this dreadful diagnosis. She said we’re not where anyone would want us to be. She referred to the Welsh national optimal pathway for pancreatic cancer, but, as the charity has said, we need this to be implemented and given sustainable funding. There’s no time for you to respond to that now, but it would be wonderful if you could indicate—. You don’t look very well; I’m very sorry. She said she has introduced a clinical audit, and I referred to the charity’s call for this in my speech, but therefore we need this to include looking at the pancreatic cancer workforce, identify gaps and urgently act to fill them, which is what the charity called for.
So, again, I will conclude by ending where I began, by emphasising that people with pancreatic cancer urgently need a faster, fairer, funded pathway throughout their diagnosis, treatment and care, and that requires implementation now. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore we will vote on this item during voting time at the end of the meeting.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Road freight transport strategy

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan, and amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the Welsh Conservatives debate on a road freight transport strategy, and I call on Natasha Asghar to move the motion.

Motion NDM8437 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the role that road freight and the logistics industry plays in supporting the Welsh economy.
2. Regrets that the Welsh Government hasn’t had a specific road freight transport strategy since 2008.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to develop and publish a specific road freight transport strategy which includes:
a) safe and secure wellbeing centres for lorry and coach drivers across Wales;
b) an extensive network of charging and refuelling points for electric or hydrogen HGVs and coaches; and
c) changes to the planning system in Wales to ensure that road freight infrastructure can be delivered as efficiently as possible.

Motion moved.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. It's my absolute pleasure to move this motion tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. Road haulage is absolutely essential in so many ways, particularly to our day-to-day lives and economy as well. So, it’s vital that this sector receives the support it so rightfully deserves. Without road haulage, food wouldn’t make it to our supermarket shelves, our petrol stations would be dry, hospitals would be without medical supplies and shops would undoubtedly be empty. With 19 per cent of all food and agricultural products being transported by road freight in the UK, it’s an incredibly important job.
In Wales, there are 5,000 road transport businesses employing some 92,000 people, with the freight transport sector contributing around about £2.5 billion to the Welsh economy each and every single year. Yet considering this is such an essential industry, with drivers doing such stellar work, the sector do not get the treatment that they deserve, and that’s certainly got to change. Just take a glance at mainland Europe, and the attitude they have towards their drivers. It’s completely different when compared to what we have in the UK, and that’s reflected in the facilities that they offer their drivers. France and Spain in particular are absolutely amazing when it comes to offering safe and secure parking for drivers, whereas here in Wales we have no safe and secure well-being centres for our drivers, and, with freight crime on the rise, it’s a real concern. Wales has one of the highest levels of freight crime involving heavy goods vehicles in the whole of the United Kingdom. Not only does it cost the United Kingdom an estimated £428 million, but it also puts our dedicated drivers at serious risk.
We need to see some investment in facilities here in Wales not just for safety reasons, but for hygiene reasons as well. I remember one of the first meetings I had with the Road Haulage Association after being elected, a fantastic organisation representing more than 8,500 companies, and it was spelled out to me that the drivers were being forced to defecate in plastic bags due to the lack of facilities. Now, I’m using correct terminology, being here in the Welsh Parliament, but I can assure you that the terminology that was used with me was not that pleasant. Now that’s simply unacceptable, being in 2023, and something nobody in any profession should ever have to endure. Yet, sadly, nothing's changed. And it's because drivers are being forced to do things like that, that many people, particularly women, are being put off from getting into this industry.
Another barrier facing not only road freight drivers but many other residents, businesses and tourists is Labour's ridiculous 20 mph speed limit project. Now, journeys are taking longer to complete as a result of the blanket 20 mph scheme, which we already know will deliver a £9 billion blow to the Welsh economy. The longer journey times also mean that drivers are hitting the legal limit that they are able to drive each day, putting them at increased risk again. This is just another reason why we need to see Labour's £33 million 20 mph policy axed and instead replaced with targeted measures outside high footfall areas, such as schools, hospitals, places of worship et cetera.
Funnily enough, though, the road haulage industry relies on roads, something the Welsh Government has been neglecting for far too long. Congestion plagues many Welsh roads every single day, again causing unnecessary delays to drivers. That's why we need to see Labour Ministers here axe their ban on road building and start investing in our roads again. We need to see much-needed infrastructure projects like the M4 relief road, the Chepstow bypass and a third Menai crossing actually delivered. Simply, the Welsh Government must stop with their anti-driver, anti-business, anti-growth agenda for good. More needs to be done to support the industry and it's clear the Welsh Government could and should be doing more to help.
Unlike the Welsh Government, the UK Conservative Government recognises the importance of HGV drivers. Lorry drivers will soon benefit from improved roadside facilities and safer rest areas in England, thanks to an up to £100 million investment. This funding will support operators to make improvements such as better security, showers, eating facilities, as well as more lorry parking spaces. We need to see more investment into the industry. We need to see action to tackle shortages in the sector. We need more emphasis put into driver safety, and we need to stop taking drivers and the industry for granted.
As today’s motion states, we need to see a specific road freight transport strategy drawn up by the Welsh Government and I'm more than happy to work collaboratively with the Minister or Deputy Minister for Climate Change to actually achieve this and make it a reality. It's essential the strategy includes safe and secure wellbeing centres, an extensive network of charging and refuelling points, and changes to the planning system to ensure road freight infrastructure can be delivered as efficiently as possible.
This afternoon we have a real, sincere opportunity to show the road haulage industry that the Welsh Parliament supports and values the fantastic work that they do. But we also need to see the Welsh Government match their warm words with robust action. And I sincerely hope that each and every single Member here today will support our motion. Thank you so much.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have selected the two amendments to the motion. I call on Luke Fletcher, first of all, to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Luke Fletcher.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan
Add as new points after point 1 and renumber accordingly:
Regrets the detrimental impact of Brexit on road freight and the logistics industry in Wales, with Welsh freight volumes remaining 27 per cent below 2019 levels.
Believes that rejoining the European Single Market would deliver a vital boost to freight trade in Welsh ports such as Holyhead, and the road freight and the logistics industry across Wales.

Amendment 1moved.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Llywydd, and I move the amendments in the name of Heledd Fychan. And I'm glad that this debate was put forward, and in thinking about this debate and in preparation for the debate I thought back to one of the first inquiries I was involved in, shortly after being elected, with the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee. It wasn't something I particularly thought of before being elected, I have to be honest, but I think many on the committee—in fact, everyone on the committee—would say that the evidence that we received in our inquiry was eye opening for many of us.
And one of the standout takeaways from our inquiry was actually the experience of drivers. Now, in the first instance, all drivers who fed into our inquiry talked about how there was a lack of safe places to park and the facilities available to them were not fit for purpose. Added to that was the evidence we were given by one driver in particular, who had been robbed 10 times and just accepted it as part of the job. Drivers deserve far better than that, because we know that much of the economy relies on delivery drivers to make their pick-ups and drop-offs. We're talking about, literally, an engine of the economy here.
Now, I know there will be a reluctance by some to hear the next few points, but I don't think we can talk about the road freight industry today without at least acknowledging the impact of Brexit, and that is the reason for our amendments. It's the elephant in the room and it continues to be a heavy millstone on trade. Now, the Office for Budget Responsibility’s most recent analysis of the impact of the post-Brexit trade and co-operation agreement has shown that the UK has become a less trade-intensive economy, with both its exports and imports predicted to be 15 per cent lower in the long run as a result of being outside the customs union and single market. And as I mentioned last week, the fact that Wales’s share of export tradewith the EU is higher than the UK average means that these downward trends are going to disproportionately affect Welsh supply chains. From the perspective of road freight, in particular, this impact is illustrated by the fact that the combined total of imports and exports of goods carried by roads between Wales and the EU was 27 per cent lower in 2022 compared to pre-pandemic levels.
And it's because trade, whether by sea, air or road, follows the path of least resistance, and the range of new red tape and bureaucratic burdens that exporters and importers alike have had to contend with has inevitably imposed barriers on the flow of trade. Where once, Welsh ports were viewed as a crucial link in the so-called land bridge to mainland Europe, they are now being increasingly bypassed by road freight in favour of direct crossings from the Republic of Ireland to France. This, in turn, is a major drag on the commercial prosperity of our ports, which are, let’s not forget, vital economic hubs for some of the most deprived parts of Wales.
So, we should also consider here the impact that new post-Brexit arrangements have had on the recruitment of HGV drivers. The Road Haulage Association’s 2021 report on driver shortages showed that 58 per cent of those surveyed cited Brexit as the main reason for the shortfall, especially from the perspective of the SME sector. While systemic problems in the HGV workforce pre-date Brexit, admittedly, it is undeniable that the new restrictions on the ability to attract and retain EU labour has made things worse. After all, it is estimated that at least 15,000 EU nationals working as HGV drivers in the UK have left the profession since Brexit.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Luke Fletcher AS: Yes, of course.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. If Brexit is the problem over the shortage of HGV drivers, why has Poland got 150,000 vacancies for HGV drivers? Why has France got 40,000 vacancies? A quick Google search shows this, so you clearly can't blame Brexit on its own for the vacancies. Surely the problems that we have highlighted in our motion are some of the key problems that the Government here needs to address to make it a better environment for HGV drivers to work in and feel secure in.

Luke Fletcher AS: Well, it's not just me saying this as well. The UK Government itself acknowledged the shortage of HGV drivers and the link to Brexit when it launched the temporary visa scheme in the autumn of 2021, to specifically target EUHGV drivers. So, it's not just me saying that. I would also note as well that the Road Haulage Association has said that there are insufficient numbers of skilled domestic drivers to fill these vacancies as well.
So, I will conclude, Llywydd, by saying that this motion is very much welcome. But I think that we do need to acknowledge the impact of Brexit on the sector when attempting to resolve the issues that the original motion seeks to address.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I call on the Minister for Economy to move formally amendment 2.

Amendment 2—Lesley Griffiths
Delete points 2 and 3 and replace with:
Notes that Llwybr Newydd sets out the way forward for freight and logistics and development of a freight and logistics plan.
Supports this work, that will take a multi-modal approach working with industry to progress:
a) improvements to the provision of safe and secure welfare facilities for lorry and coach drivers across Wales;
b) ensuring that Wales is best prepared to take advantage of new technologies relating to electric and hydrogen HGVs and coaches, reflecting industry uncertainty about these advances; and
c) adopting a strategic nationwide approach to improving road freight infrastructure across Wales.

Amendment 2 moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Formally.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you very much. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch yn fawr. Eighty-eight per cent of all goods are transported by land and moved directly by road, including 98 per cent of all food, agricultural and consumer products. This debate today is vitally important, and well done, Natasha, on putting it across so well.
In fact, the road freight sector in Wales has 5,000 registered businesses employing 92,000 people, seeing an 87 per cent increase in the number of those employed between 2012 and 2021. It moved 107 million tonnes of goods by HGVs in 2022, and it has contributed £1.765 billion in gross value added to the Welsh economy in 2021. So, the message is clear in my mind. The sector already makes a vital contribution to our nation’s economy, and has the exiting potential to do even more. Ultimately, what is needed, as the Road Haulage Association has stated, is for the Welsh Government to support the continued expansion of the logistics sector to support the expansion of our Welsh economy.
It is completely unacceptable that the sector hasn’t had a specific road freight transport strategy since 2008. The Wales transport strategy 2021 outlines how it wants to encourage a modal shift from road to rail, but does not give any details on how it will meet its targets. Recently, I was at Crewe, and I saw a multicarriage of several shipping containers—it was huge, very long, and there were too many for me to count—on its way to Ireland. It was quite an unusual sight, really. In fact, that transport strategy only refers to HGVs specifically once, but that is only a description. I quote:
'Heavy goods vehicles (HGVs)
'The term for vehicles over 3.5 tonnes—light commercial vehicles (LCVs) are under this weight.'
Now, as I have already said, we should be using our rail far more for moving a lot of this freight around. It is no surprise, then, that freight crime is a major issue, when you consider that there are only an estimated 168 secure parking spaces for HGVs across the whole of Wales and there are 20,000 registered HGVs—that represents 119 HGVs per safe parking spot. It's just not acceptable. It's not good enough. Wales, now, has all its devolved powers, we need to now be strengthening our economy by actually looking at this.
There needs to be a strategy that sets out a vision for the sector and its growth in Wales. We need to be finding and delivering safe and secure well-being centres for lorry and coach drivers across Wales, and an extension network of charging and refuelling points for electric or hydrogen HGVs and coaches, and changes to the planning system in Wales to ensure that road freight infrastructure can be delivered as efficiently as possible. For example, it is vital to update the planning process so that warehouse facilities and other developments expecting regular deliveries are required to provide high-quality driver facilities. Similarly, we need to put immediate plans in place to address the shocking fact that there is only one dedicated public rapid recharging point for electric HGVs in the whole of the UK. And I have to say, with this new EV agenda, it is a fact now that, because road building has stopped here in Wales, there are people with electric vehicles—these vehicles are considerably heavier—and our roads will soon not be capable of being able to deal with the amount of freight and transport that our hauliers will want to use.
Hynamics and Menter Môn have signed a memorandum of understanding with the aim of accelerating the development of the Holyhead hydrogen hub, which is backed by our Prime Minister's pledge of £4.8 million—money coming here into Wales. And our commitment—well, his commitment—in the autumn statement to create a £160 million investment zone in north-east Wales could help drive haulage up even further.
The reality is that the sector should, and hopefully is going to, grow again, so this matter needs addressing now. This is on you, the Minister for Economy. You must take action to support our invaluable HGV drivers. You should be working with our Deputy Minister for transport on how much of this freight can be changed from road to rail, and you should be doing this and in doing so, you'll be strengthening the Welsh economy too. Thank you.

James Evans AS: Today, we're here to debate a critical aspect of the Welsh economic backbone: our road freight transport, but I want to focus my contribution mainly on road haulage today. The road haulage industry is not just about transporting goods, it's a lifeline that connects communities, fuels business and plays a vital role in our everyday life. And I'd just like to take this opportunity to congratulate Michael Gough, who is a constituent of mine from Llandrindod, who is chairman of the Road Haulage Association for Wales.
Let's look at some of the compelling facts and figures that outline the significance of road haulage here in Wales. According to recent data from the Welsh Government, the road freight sector contributes, as Natasha Asghar said, £2.5 billion a year to the economy of Wales. That's a huge, huge figure. One key element to consider is the employment generated by the road haulage industry here in Wales. There are 5,000 registered transport businesses employing 92,000 people across the country—thousands of skilled professionals working tirelessly to ensure that goods are delivered efficiently and on time. From truck drivers to logistic managers, this industry provides a multitude of job opportunities, contributing to the livelihoods and economic stability of many communities.
The road haulage sector is an integral part of the supply chain, facilitating the movement of raw materials and finished products. Eighty nine per cent of all goods transported by land are moved directly by road, including 98 per cent of all food, agricultural and consumer products. Whether it's the delivery of agricultural products from rural areas to urban areas or the transportation of manufactured goods to exporting hubs, road haulage is the linchpin that keeps our economy moving forward.
Let's not forget the environmental impact of road haulage. Sustainable practices have become more of a focal point in recent years, with the industry making significant strides in reducing its carbon footprint. The adoption of cleaner and more fuel-efficient technologies, coupled with strategic route planning, showcases the commitment of the road haulage sector to the environmental responsibilities that they want to play a key part in.
However, it is crucial to acknowledge the challenges that the road haulage industry faces. The driver shortage remains a significant concern. The majority of HGV drivers in Wales are in the 50 to 60-year age bracket. Without safe, high-quality facilities, as well, the industry will struggle to attract new drivers. The element that needs to be addressed is a need for safer and secure well-being centres for lorries and coach drivers across Wales. We face pressing issues with the elevated levels of freight crime involving heavy goods vehicles, ranking among the highest in the UK here in Wales. This not only inflicts a substantial economic toll on the country, amounting to an estimated £428 million, as Natasha Asghar outlined, but also the loss of tax revenues. But it also exposes drivers to heightened risks of attacks.
Shockingly, there are merely 168 secure parking spaces designated for HGVs across the entirety of Wales, a stark disparity considering the presence of 20,000 registered HGVs in the country. This equates to a staggering ratio of 119 HGVs per available parking spot. Consequently, the shortage of safe parking spaces exacerbates the vulnerability of our drivers, making them susceptible to theft and contributing to the escalating freight crime here in Wales.
One unintended consequence of the default 20 mph regulations that the Government brought in has on our HGV vehicles and coaches is that they're not optimised for efficient operation at speeds lower than 30 mph. Operating below this threshold introduces complications in the physical mechanics of gear shifting and engine revving, resulting in increased torque generation to sustain movement. Regrettably, this not only prolongs travel times, but also contributes to unnecessary emissions being put into the atmosphere. To strike a balance between road safety and the operational efficiency of freight vehicles, a more nuanced approach to speed limits, especially in areas less frequented by pedestrians, is recommended. By doing so, we can mitigate the unintended consequences for road freight drivers into an optimal performance and address the environmental concerns relating to emissions.
In conclusion, Llywydd, road haulage in Wales is not about trucks on the road; it's about connectivity, it's about economic growth and the livelihoods of many people living across Wales. As we navigate the intricate web of logistics, let us recognise the vital role that road haulage plays in shaping the present and the future of Wales. I would urge all Members of the Senedd to support our motion this evening.

Peter Fox AS: As has been pointed out, road freight is absolutely fundamental to maintaining and driving forward the economic potential of businesses and communities right across Wales. If businesses can't move products and goods around the country, they are severely limited, aren't they, in their ability to expand and flourish. And so, it's common sense, good infrastructure incentivises investment into Wales. It's a great shame there aren't more Members of the Labour and Plaid benches here today to take part in this debate, recognising it's so fundamental to our economic future in Wales. We know that the handbrake on road building projects has been pulled up, scrapping 44 out of 59 proposed road building projects, which is and will continue to hold back the Welsh economy and prevent business growth—a nonsensical approach to economic development. And the issues with 20 mph—well, I won't go into those, they have been well versed here already.
But I find it incredibly concerning, as Janet said earlier, that the last time we had a road-specific strategy for freight was 2008. That's 15 years ago. This really demonstrates a lack of true forward planning. Whilst the Welsh Government's new Wales transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', provides an overview of the various transport-related subjects and does acknowledge the issue of freight, it does not go far enough. It fails to provide specific ways in which freight will be supported and taken forward, resorting instead to very vague platitudes. There is talk of delivery plans being developed, or regional transportplans driven by CJCs, but when do we and the industry get to see these plans? The plan states that Welsh Government wants a comprehensive responsive and resilient network of freight and logistics distribution, but it does not say how we’re going to get to that position. Once again, as I’ve come to expect, there is a vague approach, one without targets, specific outcomes or accountability, fundamental things to oversee future direction and delivery. How can we expect our freight industry to thrive if Welsh Government has failed to ensure that there is sufficient thought-through infrastructure in place to support it?
A future freight strategy must be properly futureproofed and fit for the remainder of the twenty-first century and beyond, ensuring we have enough high-capacity electric-vehicle charging points to ensure that businesses can invest in electric vehicles, and charging points ready to enable the transition to more and more heavy electric or hydrogen-driven freight. This is especially important considering Wales has the lowest rate of electric-vehicle charging points in the United Kingdom, falling far behind Scotland, which largely consists of rural countryside, far from major cities.
So, I hope that Members across the Chamber will join me in backing our freight industry, calling on the Welsh Government to treat it as the major economic lever that it is, and develop an up-to-date and fit strategy.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Members for tabling the motion for debate and for the contributions made so far. I welcome the opportunity to contribute myself on the Welsh freight and logistics sector.
If it ever was needed, the pandemic made clear the importance of the freight and logistics sector for all supply chains in getting essential goods where they need to go. That was a point highlighted in most of the contributions. These challenges and those that we’re experiencing now with inflation, the rising costs of energy, fuel and labour costs have highlighted more than ever the role that the road freight and logistics industry plays in supporting the Welsh economy. We do recognise that we face further challenges and that there is more work for us to do.
Just as freight and logistics know no barriers, we therefore recognise we need to look beyond simply road freight. That’s why we’re working with a range of stakeholders to ensure a nationwide approach. Since 2020 we have listened to the industry’s concerns and learned about the risks and the challenges that they face. We’ve discussed how collaboration between industry and the Welsh Government could lead to practical solutions. I will continue to support the sector to maintain the smooth flow of goods into, out of and across the country, and I recognise the comments that have been made about the interruption to the land bridge, and the impact that has upon the sector.
The broad way forward for freight and logistics is laid out at a high level in ‘Llwybr Newydd’, where we committed to the publication of a freight and logistics plan for Wales. This plan will include a route to action for supporting decarbonisation of the sector, and I’m pleased to see that some partners in the sector are already making progress in that regard; supporting operational innovation such as sharing opportunities for freight, and taking advantage of more micromobility, drone and other technological advances; how we encourage more freight to be moved by rail, and, again, a point made by other contributors; and a plan for the future of the Welsh supply chain with logistics hubs, innovations and shared transport solutions. We look to gain a better understanding of data around freight and logistics in general—particularly given the interruptions in trade patterns in the last few years—and developing our policy response to the significant growth in last-mile and express delivery, and in understanding how best to manage this alongside our ambitions to reduce congestion and tackle decarbonisation. And finally, a point again made by a number of people, how we support skills and job retention within the freight and logistics sector. The plan will address concerns of the road haulage sector, in relation to the provision of suitable lay-bys, parking facilities, rest and welfare areas for HGV drivers, and, again, no-one will be surprised that those points have been visibly made by Members across the Chamber.
We’ve separately agreed to a mapping of truck stops to be undertaken as a priority within the freight and logistics plan. This will allow us to determine where the gaps are for driver facilities so that any intervention can be targeted first in the areas that need it the most. The plan will clearly outline what can and can't be delivered, taking into account the Welsh Government's current and future budget and resource constraints.
We're now developing an approach to ensure that the sector is ready to grasp opportunities for the medium and long term. Our freight and logistics plan will take a multimodal approach to supporting the sector, and we want it to be done in collaboration with industry. Additionally, in an area where many of the levers for action are reserved to the UK Government, we want to work together to deliver improvements to freight and logistics here in Wales.The Deputy Minister for Climate Change and his officials have continued to discuss what might be possible with the industry throughout this year, and we will engage meaningfully with the sector before we publish our plan, and we will then continue to listen and engage after that plan is published to ensure that we continue to take a pragmatic and practical approach. That may, of course, mean further change as we listen and work together.
We're also committed to making a career in logistics an attractive option for more school leavers to help provide the next generation of home-grown HGV drivers. We all recognise that we need to attract more people into the industry, to boost retention rates and to expand training opportunities. Now, the roads review that we published, of course, in February this year, recommended more active engagement with the freight transport industry, particularly in problem identification. And in the Government, we recognise the concerns of the road haulage sector in relation to the provision of suitable lay-bys, parking facilities and rest areas for HGV drivers. So, we will continue to push forward to look at credible solutions to ensure that lorry and coach drivers feel safe and secure whilst going about their everyday work as part of our engagement on the plan.
We recognise the importance of speed and predictability in the planning and consent system for road freight infrastructure. Drivers' roadside facilities require planning permission and sites that are suitable for overnight stays. And this is an area that we will continue to look at to try to understand what we can do to further support them.
Lastly, there is some uncertainty in industry about the decarbonisation of fleets and how to effectively adopt electric and hydrogen-powered vehicles. There is also potential economic opportunity in this area for Wales as well. Our work with industry will focus on what is needed, where it is needed and how we address barriers to uptake. I look forward to working constructively, not just with colleagues in Government but across the Chamber as we develop the plan and continue to take practical action to support this sector. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I thank all Members who contributed to today's debate, but I will say I'm a little bit disappointed, Dirprwy Lywydd, that no Labour backbenchers chose to participate in this debate and there was only one contributor from Plaid Cymru. It is disappointing, as I think it's a debate that we all believe in—I think we all believe in the freight industry—that we didn't hear more contributions from all parties, which would have been more welcome.
We know, hearing from Natasha Asghar and others, that the freight industry is an integral part of our economy. We've heard pretty much from everybody about that, so I won't reel off the stats, but that £2.5 billion contribution to the economy I think is key and integral to remember. And it comes back to, as we heard from James Evans and others, food on the supermarket shelves, medical supplies to those who need them and letters and parcels to home and businesses—they're all the responsibility of that freight industry working as it should here in Wales.
As part of National Lorry Week 2022, Altaf Hussain and I went to visit one such company based in Bridgend, and one of the things that stuck with me from that visit was that, first of all, it's quite a climb, isn't it, to get into the cabin of a lorry, but Altaf and I did manage it, and we've got a great photo somewhere of the two of us sat in a cabin. But, secondly, going back to the economy, they told us, and it has stuck with me, that the health of the freight industry directly correlates with the health of the wider economy here in Wales. So, getting that right is an absolutely integral economic driver, I think, to economic prosperity here in Wales.
We heard from James Evans, Janet Finch-Saunders and others about stopping spaces, and I think this was a key theme that came through in the debate. James Evans mentioned the lack of safe parking spaces, and Luke Fletcher and others mentioned that lorry drivers in particular were susceptible to freight crime—and we know that Wales has one of the highest levels of freight crime, unfortunately, with heavy goods vehicles in the United Kingdom—and that lack of safe parking spaces that James Evans mentioned will be an integral reason why that's happening, because that's not a luxury for lorry drivers, that is a real requirement, a legal requirement placed upon them to stop in those ways in a safe place. We shouldn't get used to, I think, freight crime happening on our roads and in our stopping spaces across Wales.
Unfortunately, Luke Fletcher's contribution focused a lot, I think, on Brexit, and even though Andrew R.T. Davies reminded us that a lot of the problems that we're seeing in the industry are happening across the European Union, it seems that Plaid Cymru never miss an opportunity to bash Brexit, I think, in this country. They call themselves 'the party of Wales' over and over again, but every time Wales expresses an opinion on something that they don't like, they're quite happy to ignore it.
We also heard from Natasha Asghar about some of the wider transport issues, which we can forget not only has an impact on commuters and people living their everyday lives, but on the freight and haulage industry as well. So, the 20 mph approach that we've seen from this Welsh Government has had a real impact, I think,and I've heard, and I'm sure all Members have, about firms that find the—. Newport in particular, and driving on the M4 through Newport and the lack of a relief road—a big problem to the viability of their businesses, and that is a problem as well.
We heard from the Minister finally, mentioning what the Welsh Government are doing—that 2021 transport strategy. And I just wanted to read what the Road Haulage Association made of the Welsh Government's transport strategy: 'The Wales transport strategy 2021 outlines how it wants to encourage modal shift from road to rail, but does not give sufficient detail on how it will meet its targets. The strategy fails to outline how it will support the current freight and logistics sector, which is heavily reliant on road freight, and provide the infrastructure that is needed to accommodate present-day concerns.' That's the assessment from the industry about the Welsh Government's approach, and I think Peter Fox put it best when he said it is a vague approach without targets. I will remind the Road Haulage Association that we're very used to that from this Welsh Government.
And finally we heard from Janet Finch-Saunders and others that there has been no specific road freight strategy since 2008. That's what our motion today hopes to put right, because—. I'll end with a quote, and it was from someone called Ieuan Wyn Jones, who said:
'A first class system of transport is a vital element in securing economic prosperity, but also for ensuring social justice and sustainability.'
So, if we want to deliver that economic prosperity, that social justice and sustainability, we need to deliver a road transport strategy that delivers all of those things. It is very easy to make calls in terms of where you would like money to be spent, but I think it's very difficult sometimes to put in place the infrastructure that delivers them. And before I close, Llywydd, I will end with a thought: where has that Plaid Cymru gone?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Plaid Cymru Debate: Fuel poverty

The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Darren Millar.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate: fuel poverty. And I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Motion NDM8435 Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes that the current cost-of-living crisis shows how vulnerable communities in Wales are to the cost of energy.
2. Regrets that up to 98 per cent of households on lower incomes in Wales are estimated to be in fuel poverty following the price cap increase of April 2022.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) implement the new Warm Homes Programme with urgency to support low-income households in making their homes more energy efficient this winter; and
b) set interim targets in their Tackling Fuel Poverty 2021-2035 Plan to measure progress.
4. Calls on the UK Government to introduce a social tariff to support those in need with their energy bills this winter.

Motion moved.

Sioned Williams AS: I move the motion. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think that everyone in this Chamber would agree that nobody in twenty-first century Wales should be in a situation where maintaining a warm home is unaffordable, but this is the reality for almost half of Wales's households according to the latest estimates by the Welsh Government—which is, by now, bound to be an underestimate—and this equates to 614,000 households. And for those on low incomes, this is true for almost 100 per cent of them. It's estimated that 98 per cent of all lower income households in Wales are in fuel poverty, with up to 41 per cent of these in serious fuel poverty. That equates to 97,000 households. And fuel poverty was a problem in Wales long before the current energy and cost-of-living crises. These recent crises, as noted in our motion, have demonstrated how defenceless communities in Wales are when it comes to energy costs. This has exacerbated the situation, rather than caused it.
So, those are the frightening, shameful statistics that all of us should bear in mind, as well as what these figures mean—namely that fuel poverty is a problem that affects almost half of the population and that preventing fuel poverty should be and must be a priority for any Government that wants to safeguard the well-being and health of its people. It's unacceptable that so many families are being denied their human right to live in a warm and safe home.
Our motion therefore aims to draw attention to the seriousness of the situation for the thousands upon thousands of households facing yet another difficult winter, even more difficult than last winter, as the financial support made available last year by the Westminster and Welsh Governments to help them cope with these cold months is long gone; the motion also notes what must be done as a matter of urgency to ensure that there will not be another winter like this one, because that was the promise that we received from the Welsh Government—time and time again, in response to committee inquiries, to questions, debates in the Chamber and interviews—that the main method of tackling fuel poverty, namely the Warm Homes programme, would be up and running by this winter.
The importance of this was echoed by the expert group on the cost-of-living crisis. The fact that this won't happen, and indeed that it will be a whole year late—if what we heard from the First Minister last week is correct, it is in April next year that the new, enhanced programme will start to help the poorest, least energy efficient homes lower their bills—is a very serious issue. As there has been repeated delay to the timetable already, I ask for an assurance—indeed, a guarantee—from the Minister that there will be no further slippage on this. How certain are you, Minister, that the programme will go live in April? I'd like you to give a very firm answer on this, please.
And as the immediate needs of so many people in Wales are once again ignored entirely by the Westminster Government, which could have announced the promised consultation on the introduction of a social tariff in the Chancellor's autumn statement, all that the hundreds of thousands of people here can do is hope that their health will not suffer serious harm as a result of cold and damp, and that they and their families will not be among the 623 people who die as a result of fuel poverty in Wales every year—who die because of fuel poverty.
And to add to their fears, they have now been told by Ofgem that the next price cap will increase by £100 in January. From next month, therefore, the price cap will be nearly £2,000 on average, and NEA Cymru estimates that customers in Wales will be, on average, paying even more, specifically due to poor-quality housing here and higher costs of energy.

Sioned Williams AS: The Welsh Government's 'Tackling fuel poverty 2021 to 2035' plan aims to get Welsh households living in fuel poverty down to 5 per cent by 2035. The figures I've highlighted show that we are very far away from reaching that goal. The strategy was strongly welcomed by Plaid Cymru, as we recognised the importance of having such a plan in place to tackle fuel poverty. However, one of our main concerns was, once again, the lack of interim targets and milestones to measure progress made towards that aim in implementing the goals set out in the plan.
This need for interim targets was also set out back in April 2020, when the then Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee wrote their report on fuel poverty in Wales. Similarly, when the Equality and Social Justice Committee of which I'm a member reported last year on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme, we too included a recommendation on the need for interim targets. Among the 10 priority actions for the first two years of the plan was the need to develop a new Warm Homes programme, to be in place by March 2023. The Bevan Foundation and NEA Cymru have highlighted that the ongoing delay will have had a significant impact on the Welsh Government's ability to meet its targets.
And let's remember that the Welsh Government has a statutory obligation to set these interim targets, but, despite these repeated calls by Plaid Cymru, Senedd committees and the Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru, none have been set. They're crucial in order to review the effectiveness of the strategy and to map out progress towards the 2035 target. So, once again, Minister, we're asking you to support the need for interim targets to be set within the tackling fuel poverty plan. Without these interim milestones, we are unlikely to drive the sustained and necessary action required to tackle our fuel poverty crisis.
The final call in our motion is related to action the UK Government should take to protect Welsh families in fuel poverty andin danger of falling into fuel poverty. Citizens Advice Cymru has reported that in 2022 they saw more people who couldn't afford to top up their prepayment meters than in the whole of the previous 10 years combined. And the number of people coming to them for advice on energy debt is still at record highs, with this October the highest month on record—up 40 per cent compared to October last year.
An energy social tariff is one of the most effective ways UK Government can provide support, by offering price protection to all households struggling to afford their energy bills. By lowering unit rates, standing charges, or providing bill rebates, a social tariff could provide long-term security and much-needed relief to those facing bills that are over 50 per cent higher than pre-crisis level. We would urge the Welsh Government and all Members across the Chamber to support this call by voting for our motion. As the letter from National Energy Action, and signed by 95 organisations, to Rishi Sunak calling for a social tariff states,
'we can expect millions of people in low-income and vulnerable households to suffer many more years living in a cold home, rationing energy, and struggling to cook a hot meal. As families fall behind on bills, they will be faced with the double whammy of facing high costs and trying to drag their way out of energy debt. This is a long-term problem that requires a sustainable safety net for these people.'
I hope Members across the Chamber will vote for our motion today, because the winter is already upon us. The poet Shelley asked:
'If winter comes, can spring be far behind?'
Well, the winter, although just begun, has already been too long for too many people, and still there is no sign of spring. Llywydd, we owe it to almost half of the people who are in fuel poverty, and in whose name we sit here, to act with more urgency to ensure this winter is not once again filled with dread and danger to people's health, and to signal that spring is coming.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected the four amendments to the motion, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar
Add new point at end of motion:
Regrets that the Welsh Government has not implemented the new Warm Homes programme prior to the winter of 2023 despite assurances that it would.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
In point 3, delete sub-point (a) and replace with:
implement the new Warm Homes Programme with urgency to support low-income households, older people and people living with a terminal illness in making their homes more energy efficient this winter.

Amendment 3—Darren Millar
Add as new sub-point at the end of point 3:
introduce interim milestones to its Tackling Fuel Poverty 2021-2035 Plan.

Amendment 4—Darren Millar
Add new point at end of motion:
Notes the ongoing work by Ofgem and the UK Government to support households facing cost-of-living challenges and to deliver consumer protection.

Amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4 moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. We will be pleased to support this motion, and our amendments are only intended to strengthen it. Although the number of households in debt has fallen, higher debt levels are now concentrated in fewer households. In addition to calling on the Welsh Government to implement the new Warm Homes programme with urgency, our first amendment adds specific reference to older people and people living with a terminal illness. Care & Repair’s report, 'Older People in Wales: Poverty in Winter' found that their average client will be spending, on average, 19 per cent of their income on utilities this winter, including 15 per cent on gas and electricity, putting these older people in fuel poverty. Further, they highlight the concern that people in north Wales and Merseyside pay an extra £82 in standing charges every year compared to London. Further, Marie Curie are calling for the Welsh Government to add people with 12 months or less to live to the health conditions eligibility criteria in its Warm Homes programme.
Our second amendment seeks to strengthen the motion's call on the Welsh Government to set interim targets in their 'Tackling fuel poverty 2021 to 2035' plan, by calling on the Welsh Government to introduce interim milestones to the plan. As National Energy Action Cymru and the Bevan Foundation note, although interim fuel poverty targets based on the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes will provide vital opportunities to review progress towards 2035, the new targets do not yet meet the Welsh Government's statutory obligations to specify interim objectives to be achieved and target dates for achieving them—statutory. As Citizens Advice Cymru states, interim targets would ensure that the Welsh Government is accountable for progress.
Our amendment 3 regrets that the Welsh Government has not implemented the new Warm Homes programme prior to the winter of 2023 despite assurances that it would. According to the Welsh Government, the Warm Homes programme is its primary mechanism to tackle fuel poverty. The new scheme will be demand led and assist those who are least able to pay. Despite assurances, however, the Welsh Government did not implement the programme prior to the winter of 2023. In fact, although the Welsh Government fuel poverty strategy stated that they would:
'Consult on revised arrangements for delivering measures for tackling fuel poverty beyond March 2023'
between June and December 2021, the consultation was not launched until December 2021. The strategy also states that the Welsh Government will publish its response and implement their findings, to start in April 2023, but they didn't even respond until June 2023. I've been repeatedly told by various Ministers in this Chamber that the new Warm Homes programme will be implemented before this winter, but the First Minister finally admitted last week that they were now looking to the end of the financial year, which is next 5 April, after winter is over.
Our final amendment notes the ongoing work by Ofgem and the UK Government to support households facing cost-of-living challenges, and to deliver consumer protection. Analysis by the International Monetary Fund shows that the gross size of the UK Government's energy support package relative to GDP is one of the highest in Europe. The Chancellor's autumn statement last month noted that the UK Government's energy price guarantee and energy bill support scheme paid for almost half of the typical family's energy bill from October 2022 to June 2023, in addition to the benefits uprating and support for vulnerable households, which included new cost-of-living payments in 2023-24 and a £1 billion extension to the household support fund.
Ofgem's price cap sets a limit on what suppliers can charge households per unit of energy. As Ofgem told us at last week's meeting of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, the price cap increase—unwelcome, of course—from 1 January 2024 is because of the increase in the international cost of energy, caused by world events. Although the launch of their code of practice on involuntary prepayment meter installations is welcomed, last week's Petitions Committee report, 'A Warmer Winter', is right to call for Ofgem to monitor the impact of the code, with particular focus on those at the upper and lower age limits.
Finally—and I've got to say it—those silly billies who repeatedly blame the cost-of-living crisis itself on Westminster should note that the IMF's 2023 annual report includes, and I quote:
'A combination of climate shocks and the pandemic disrupted food and energy production and distribution, driving up costs'—

Sioned Williams AS: Will you take an intervention?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: He's out of time. He is out of time.

Mark Isherwood AC: 'for people around the world.'
I'll finish the quote and bring you in.
'Russia's invasion of Ukraine worsened an already difficult situation.'
Yes, I'll take—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: No, Mark. You're out of time. You've gone past your time, so can you conclude now, please?

Mark Isherwood AC: Okay. As Action Aid stated last month,
'The global economic crisis'—
global economic crisis—
'is affecting us all this winter'.
Diolch yn fawr.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: In the middle of Sioned Williams's excellent opening contribution, she referred to a very frightening statistic that struck me, which is that almost 300 people die in Wales because of cold every winter and every year. That is frightening, and it's shameful, indeed. Indeed, approximately 30 per cent of excess winter deaths can be linked to living in cold homes. So, put simply, cold homes kill, and those who have to live in a cold home have to suffer and cope with that cold. Research by Public Health Wales demonstrates that cold temperatures in the home are related to poorer health outcomes, and living in temperatures below 18 degrees Celsius has a detrimental impact on people's health and is associated with heart and lung problems, sleep disorders and poor physical performance and health in general. And the impact on older people is particularly severe. Three quarters of excess deaths occur among people over the age of 75.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: The older people's housing champion in Wales, Care & Repair, has stated that, even with Government support, the average Care & Repair client will spend 19 per cent of their income on utilities this winter. Data suggests that, in winter 2022-23, clients who engaged with Care & Repair's fuel poverty and energy advice service were spending on average 25 per cent of their income on utilities. The situation is forcing them to choose between heating and eating. While the support offered by the Welsh Government has been a welcome lifeline, the current situation is utterly unsustainable. A report by Care & Repair Cymru revealed that 96 per cent of households accessing Care & Repair's energy advice service were identified as living in fuel poverty. While there has been an increase in the state pension in line with inflation, older citizens still face higher utility expenses. This places additional stress on already vulnerable households, raising concerns about escalating debts and the struggle to afford necessities.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: The housing crisis has put huge pressure on households, including those on low incomes, who, more often than not, have to pay a poverty premium for their energy. Low-income households are more likely, therefore, to be on a prepayment meter or are unable to afford to take the steps necessary to make energy-saving improvements. It is clear that long-term solutions are needed to keep the heating on so that people can be healthy and safe at home, and prevent illnesses that are linked to the cold and the resulting hospital admissions.
We need sustainable solutions that tackle the root causes of energy poverty in our communities. This isn’t just an issue facing us this winter but one that calls for a permanent solution in the long term. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: So, we face what we thought was always going to be an even worse winter than last year. What can we do, for example, to encourage private landlords, who are not encumbered by mortgages, to do the right thing and make their properties more energy efficient, because that is where the majority of those who are suffering the most from not being able to heat their homes are to be found? What would be the consequences of raising the energy efficiency requirements on the private rented sector that we expect of the social housing sector, to the same standard? We require all the social housing to be C or above, and we should expect the same, in my view, of the private sector. I hear the counter-argument from Julie James is that that might lead to an exodus of private landlords, but how do we know that and have we really tested that? If you don't want to be part of the private rented sector, then get out and somebody else will replace you, either another private landlord or somebody who will buy that property to live in. It has to be a privilege and a responsibility to have a property to let, and, unfortunately, too many landlords see it as a cash cow.
I think part of the problem here is that there's such a confusion of schemes that people are completely confused as to what they might be eligible for and as to whether they're going to be taken for a ride. It is really disappointing that the Welsh Government's Warm Homes programme is still limping along, with the old Warm Homes programme being administered by Nest. But it's still the case that far too many people don't even know that they can make a free call to Nest and get independent advice and, possibly, get financial support, depending on the circumstances. So, I know the Welsh Government has a policy of 'claim what's yours', but we absolutely have not reached all the people who need to know about it.
What about other schemes that I learnt about, quite by chance, the other day? ECO4 and ECO Flex—these are both UK Government schemes, which the Tories are very keen to tell us that they're doing a lot and that we could be taking advantage of. Apparently, you're eligible for ECO Flex if the household income is less than £30,000, including household costs, and you receive child benefit. However, having looked at the detail online, I can tell you it's completely confusing. If you're a single person with a child under four, you have to have an income of £18,300 or less; if you're a couple, it's £25,500. If you're single with a primary school child, it's £19,200, or, for a couple, £26,500. And with a secondary school child, it's £22,100, or, a couple, £29,300. Keeping up? No wonder people absolutely are confused. And then, if you look further into the blurb that's on this site recommended by the—who is it?—. Anyway, as to frequently asked questions for domestic customers and landlords—this is Ofgem with the Warm Homes scheme—you can't get ECO funding if you want to blend it in with the Warm Homes discount, the boiler upgrade, the social housing decarbonisation fund or the home upgrade grant—whatever they are when they're at home. It's up to the energy companies to determine which retrofit programmes they choose to fund. It’s not a grant scheme, so how much you might be asked to pay depends on the largesse of the energy company. That is why people are so frightened—because they think, ‘If I enter into this, what is the bill that I’m going to get?’ and we’re talking, of course, about people who are already borrowing on buy-now, pay-later terms to keep some modicum of warmth in their house.
Yesterday, British Gas were here, and we heard about a charity that they’ve now set up to help you get cash to resolve your energy debts. It sounds a great idea, but how many people know about that who are struggling with debts they’re never going to be able to clear, because they just go into more and more debt every month? I think this is really, really confusing, and that is one of the reasons why so few rights are being asserted, because it is purposely made too difficult for people to really understand what’s happening.

Delyth Jewell AC: Buy candles and torches, because dark days could be coming—that was the message from Deputy Prime Minister Oliver Dowden yesterday. He wasn't talking about fuel poverty, but about pandemic and natural disaster planning. But, for many people, fuel poverty is an economic disaster that has a significant impact on our health. Dirprwy Lywydd, they could still end up with just candles and torches this winter because they can't afford to heat or light their homes.
Now, the context of all of this is important. The privatisation of the energy market has failed. It was a ridiculous notion, the idea that the exact same gas or electricity that goes through wiring and pipes and into our homes should be marketised with a bogus new level of profit being created for companies that never handle the product. They don't add anything to it; they just sell it on at an extortionate rate to citizens who are increasingly unable to pay. Keeping warm, keeping the lights on should never be seen as a luxury. It is a basic necessity, and our society is failing in its moral duty to protect people from harm. The uninvited ghost of Thatcher has been evoked already this week, and her policy's spectre haunts the homes of every person this winter who cannot afford to keep the lights and the heating on. No-one should have to suffer in a cold home.
Renationalising that market is long overdue, but the times, of course, have changed. We must invest in energy sources that don't wed us to fossil fuels, that don't leave our citizens open to being cold, to being starved of heat and light at this dark and cold time of year, but renewable energy sources that Wales is rich in—our water, our land, the winds that whip around our shores. Yesterday, I had the pleasure to host Community Energy Wales at the Pierhead building for the launch of their report into the state of the sector, 2023. And community energy organisations do have a vital role to play here. The community energy sector continues to occupy a broad range of interests, ranging from electricity generation, developing heat networks, providing low-carbon transport initiatives, and, crucially, tackling fuel poverty. They are challenges, not least of all the need to upgrade and democratise our grid, but these are challenges the Government must take on. Because until we see that change, as has been made so powerfully clear in this debate already, people will feel trapped in their homes this winter, unable to find warmth inside or out.
We know that thousands of Welsh households live in severe fuel poverty. That requires 20 per cent of their income to maintain satisfactory warmth. That isn't sustainable. And as the future generations commissioner has said, overcoming these stubbornly high levels of fuel poverty in our nation has to sit at the heart of Wales's decarbonisation and social justice objectives. This is a social justice question, and it has to be seen as a fundamental part of a green and just recovery. Tackling the climate crisis and social justice are not two separate topics; they are fundamentally intertwined. And the climate crisis is having a severe effect on citizens’ lives every day.
Wales has amongst the oldest and least energy-efficient housing stock in Europe. No-one underestimates the challenge that that presents us with, but, again, it is a challenge that the Welsh Government has to grapple with, it has to surmount. Funding and incentives must be made available to private housing, and the Welsh Government needs to ensure it plays its part in developing the Welsh marketplace, investing in skills, supply chains, technology. And experts tell us that we have to see 20,000 new low-carbon social homes being built by the end of this Senedd term, a target that the Government is regrettably not on target to meet.
All the while, the Warm Homes programme has been delayed again. Now, there are challenges here, Dirprwy Lywydd, significant ones. We speak at the start of a long and difficult winter. There are thousands of households who are dreading getting their heating bills, or who are staying in the cold and the damp and the dark because they know that they won't be able to afford whatever will be in that envelope when it lands on their doormat. In a civilised society, we can't allow that to continue.

Jack Sargeant AC: This is a crisis in our energy market that has been developing for some time now. Many of us in this Chamber have warned of the perfect storm, a storm of long-term and short-term problems coming together to create what, frankly, is a mess. Our energy markets and the powers given to the regulator, Ofgem, are both so ridiculously rigged to the favour of the suppliers of the energy markets. We protect their profitability above all else.
And when the scale of the prepayment meter scandal was exposed by journalists like Dean Kirby and Paul Morgan-Bentley of The Times, where energy suppliers were caught red-handed on camera breaking and entering into people's homes, a voluntary agreement had to be sought to place a moratorium on the forceful switching of some of our most vulnerable residents. And why did that voluntary agreement need to be sought? Well, it was needed because neither UK Government Ministers nor the regulator, Ofgem, had the power to stop these energy suppliers breaking their way into people's homes. In fact, they still don't—this winter, they still don't. A code of conduct has now been agreed. I believe it's one that flies in the face of common sense, Deputy Presiding Officer. It does nothing to protect many vulnerable people in Wales, in the United Kingdom.
And let me give you the example of residents with conditions like dementia still at risk of being forcibly switched. Now, let's just let the inappropriateness of that sink in—dementia patients in Wales, in the United Kingdom, being forced onto prepayment meters. Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m grateful to the chair of the fuel poverty group, Mark Isherwood, for raising the Petitions Committee inquiry. It’s a piece of work that I was proud to lead with colleagues from across parties, and I'm pleased of his support for our recommendations. We'll come to a debate in the new year and I look forward to the Minister's support and response to the recommendations made.
I'm also thankful to him for his chairmanship of the fuel poverty group. It's the group I attended last week with Sioned Williams, where, in discussion with representatives from Ofgem, they told us that, whilst the code of practice seeks to protect people, it's still left to the debt collectors to decide whether someone is vulnerable or not, whether they could be switched or not. That's a disgrace, Deputy Presiding Officer. Debt collectors, energy suppliers, once again marking their own homework. We saw last year what happened there. It's why, Deputy Presiding Officer, I look forward to bringing a Member's legislative proposal next week on the regulation of debt collectors in Wales.
Deputy Presiding Officer, we see and we've heard again today about a record numbers of residents in fuel poverty. We see the support being withdrawn. There's no over-exaggeration when we say that this, actually, is no longer about heating or eating. This is a matter of life and death this winter. And it is in that context, Deputy Presiding Officer, that suppliers like British Gas, like Scottish Power, which last year announced record profits, are still allowed to levy huge standing charges—standing charges to protect those very record profits.
We have heard this afternoon again that residents in north Wales pay the highest standing charges in the United Kingdom. And I'm sorry to say, but there is silence from the Westminster Government, who promised to level us up. Let's be real here. Let's live in reality, Deputy Presiding Officer. Residents in Connah's Quah and Buckley in my constituency are paying higher standing charges than Russian billionaires in Knightsbridge and Mayfair.
Deputy Presiding Officer, it's clear that our energy market needs serious reform—reform that goes well beyond some of the issues that I have mentioned today. But what we could do is we could start by scrapping standing charges. We could start by placing the right to a warm home above the right to make exorbitant profits. And we could start, Deputy Presiding Officer, as this motion lays out—and one that I will be supporting unamended this afternoon—by introducing a social tariff. Diolch.

Cefin Campbell AS: I want to start my contribution to this debate this afternoon by saying that this parliamentary term has been very difficult for anyone who represents or who comes from a rural area in Mid and West Wales—or, indeed, any other rural community across Wales.
You have heard me speaking in the Senedd here several times about examples such as the termination of the Bwcabus service; the closure of banks, post offices, businesses and social amenities across the entire region; and the ongoing deterioration in health services, with surgeries closing and a lack of NHS dentists. This is a picture of the decline of rural Wales. And all of this is in the context of an ongoing cost-of-living crisis, which is affecting everyone across Wales, but is having a particular impact on our rural communities. According to the Bevan Foundation, the cost-of-living crisis has affected rural households most, with what the foundation has called a triple squeeze. That refers to high costs, low incomes and limited and deficient support from different Governments.
We know that people in rural areas spend, on average, £27 more on transport per week, and £4 more on food every week, than people living in urban areas. People in rural areas are far more likely to be self-employed, and median income for the self-employed is two-thirds smaller than that for the employed. Being self-employed also makes it harder to access key benefits, including assistance with energy costs.
Furthermore, this support with energy costs does not provide enough of a safety net for rural households. These homes are more likely to be off-grid, and to use oil or LPG for their heating. This includes 39 per cent of homes in Carmarthenshire, 55 per cent of homes in Powys, and 74 per cent of homes in Ceredigion. This fuel is often more expensive, it is not capped, and the energy costs are very high and are exacerbated by the exact nature of rural homes, which are often older, stone-built homes, which are less well insulated and less energy efficient than urban houses.

Cefin Campbell AS: As we look into a long, cold winter, we do so with so many rural households already at breaking point. Too often this is hidden from view, with many of the ways that we assess and measure poverty failing to capture it in less densely populated rural areas. In the Welsh countryside, chronic deprivation often exists side-by-side with great affluence. Key support schemes like food or fuel banks are often simply unavailable, and where they are, a culture of self-reliance and a perceived stigma around accessing them can prevent low-income households from claiming the benefits they are entitled to.
For all of these reasons and more, I have called consistently for the Welsh Government to develop and implement a targeted strategy to tackle rural poverty—one that recognises that the drivers and nature of rural and urban poverty are different, and that they require different solutions. I echo that call here again today.
I join with my party colleagues, as we've already heard from Sioned Williams and other cross-party Members, in calling today for the Welsh Government to implement its new Warm Homes programme with urgency, and would add that this programme must be rural-proofed, to ensure that it provides the kinds of targeted and specific support that rural, off-grid households need. Likewise, interim targets under the 'Tackling Fuel Poverty 2021-2035' plan should include specific and measurable targets for reducing fuel poverty in rural areas.

Cefin Campbell AS: Our rural communities are currently facing a genuine crisis, and it is high time that the Welsh Government tackled this issue with the urgency it demands. We can't let anyone suffer or even die this winter because of fuel poverty. This is something that we can avoid and, indeed, we must avoid it, as a matter of priority.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I do welcome this opportunity to debate fuel poverty in Wales, and thank Plaid Cymru for tabling the motion. The cost-of-living crisis has had a devastating impact on household budgets across Wales, and vulnerable and low-income households are facing a particularly bleak winter. And while our Welsh Government financial settlement is extremely challenging, we're determined to protect front-line services and support those most in need as far as we possibly can within our powers and responsibilities.
Last week, I discussed this issue with the Senedd cross-party group on fuel poverty, chaired by Mark Isherwood, on Fuel Poverty Awareness Day, and some colleagues in the Chamber were there as part of that event. I'd like to take this opportunity to publicly thank all the agencies and charities working alongside us to support people through this very difficult time. The impact of the pandemic and the ongoing cost-of-living crisis has seen a rise in the number of people in need of financial support. Demand for the discretionary assistance fund has continued to increase over recent years. For example, we supported nearly 109,000 individuals with over £15.6 million in grants between April and September this year, and over £8 million of this support was cash payments, providing financially vulnerable individuals and their families with vital support for basic living costs, such as food and energy.
Since June 2022, we've allocated nearly £4.5 million of funding to enable the Fuel Bank Foundation to introduce a national fuel voucher scheme for eligible households in Wales, and a heat fund scheme for off-grid households—particularly important in rural areas, as we've just heard. To date, these interventions have supported over 83,000 people—this is the Fuel Bank Foundation scheme—including more than 35,000 children. We've provided further funding to ensure that the Fuel Bank Foundation continue their support throughout the coming winter period.
Maximising income is the single most important step to alleviating fuel poverty, and the Government's committed to ensuring that people in Wales claim every pound to which they're entitled. Our benefit take-up campaign is delivering results and, so far, has helped nearly 16,000 people claim over £6.3 million. In the last financial year, for 'Claim what's yours', our campaign, those advisers who help thousands of people, nearly 6,000 issues that the advisers dealt with related to problems with debt. 'Claim what's yours' has helped people to claim over £11 million in additional income.
Our Warm Homes Nest scheme has also played an important role. Benefit entitlement checks under the service in 2022-23 resulted in a household average of £2,457 potential increase in benefit take-up, increasing benefit take-up by just under £1 million last year. So, building on this success, our latest national benefits take-up campaign will signpost people towards Advicelink Cymru, and it's good to be able to share this and put it on the record today in this debate, encouraging them to check their eligibility for further financial support.
It was last week that we published our 2022-23 Nest annual report, and it did highlight that almost 22,000 households have received advice and signposting to further support, alongside almost 4,500 households who received home energy-saving measures at no cost to them. These improvements are estimated to have saved households an average of £422 on their annual energy bills.
Dirprwy Lywydd, it is important that I state today that we've extended the contract for our Warm Homes Nest scheme to the end of March 2024, whilst officials procure the successor scheme, meaning that support from Nest will continue through this winter. We aim to issue the intention to award letters shortly, to enable a smooth transition to the new Warm Homes service. In shaping the new scheme, we've listened to stakeholders, including in the Senedd. The eligibility criteria for the new scheme have been enhanced to include all low-income households, rather than just those on means-tested benefits.

Sioned Williams AS: Would you take an intervention, Minister?

Jane Hutt AC: Sioned.

Sioned Williams AS: Could I take from what you've just said that you are giving assurance that the new iteration of the Warm Homes programme will be live by April next year?

Jane Hutt AC: I am giving you that assurance that Nest will continue until March 2024, and—

Sioned Williams AS: That's not what I'm asking. Nest isn't the same as the new iteration of the Warm Homes programme.

Jane Hutt AC: No, I'm saying—. I hadn't finished what I was saying. Nest takes us forward to dovetail with the new Warm Homes scheme that is being procured and will come into being, a smooth transition to the new service. I said March 2024; obviously, that's April 2024. No break in the continuity between one and the other, so I hope that gives you the assurance that you need today.
But I think it is important, and Members have raised the issue about other energy efficiency support measures in addition to the new Warm Homes programme. We discussed this, didn't we, at the cross-party group last week. For example, exploring additional support, and it's been mentioned, the UK Government's energy company obligation scheme. We're also supporting local authorities to ensure that the ECO Flex scheme is available across Wales.
So, I expect to publish an update to the fuel poverty strategy shortly, reflecting on progress against the 10 actions set out in 2021, and setting out those that we consider complete, those that are ongoing, and those that are new to the plan since our last update. Working closely with our fuel poverty advisory panel, including looking at those meaningful interim targets that measure progress in areas within—

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Will the Minister take an intervention, please?

Jane Hutt AC: —our control. Mabon.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: You've mentioned a lot of the good things that the Government are doing, but it would be remiss of me not to mention Y Dref Werdd in Blaenau Ffestiniog, which are doing a lot of good work in the community, assisting people with fuel poverty. But in the Ffestiniog area, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Tanygrisiau especially, they suffer from amongst the highest levels of fuel poverty in the whole of Wales, indeed, in the whole of the UK. Just above Tanygrisiau, you have Engie, a French company that produces energy from pumped storage with 360 MW capacity there, and just down the road in Maentwrog, Magnox produce 60 MW as well. All this energy is produced in these communities, but all of it is taken out and none of the benefits come to these communities, while the communities in the shadow of these energy-production companies suffer from high fuel poverty. Don't you agree with me that these communities should benefit from these companies, and these companies should be answerable to those communities and give something back to the community?

Jane Hutt AC: I absolutely agree. I'm very shortly meeting with energy suppliers, and I'll be making those very points. But I do want to—we're coming to the end of my time, I hope you'll give me a bit of leeway—

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I will give you some time, Minister.

Jane Hutt AC: I won't be taking any more interventions. I do say that many of the levers that can make the biggest difference to poverty levels and energy costs do lie elsewhere. They lie with the UK Government, they lie with the energy companies, they lie with the regulator, Ofgem. It is so important that this motion, which we back, is calling for the UK Government to introduce a social tariff to protect the most vulnerable households. We've called for that, and in fact the Chancellor made a commitment in his autumn statement in 2022, over a year ago, that he would develop a new approach to consumer protection, including the option of a social tariff to apply from April 2024. But we’re facing this challenging winter and we haven’t seen anything further; there was nothing in the Chancellor’s statement about this. And I’ve raised this with the Minister, calling for the energy support scheme underspends, for example, to be reused, because they weren’t all used to deliver a targeted support scheme this winter.
So, I think finally, Deputy Llywydd, I want to take the opportunity to thank the Petitions Committee for their attention to the issues in relation to the energy companies. They must follow the new rules in terms of the forced installation of prepayment meters, which was such a scandal last winter. So, thank you for your paper, and your report from the Petitions Committee. I look forward to the debate in the new year.
We’ve all got a role to play in supporting vulnerable households through this winter. The cross-party group demonstrated we all want to achieve the same outcome, to improve the lives of our most vulnerable households. So, I support, as I said, the original motion unamended; we won’t be supporting the amendments. I hope and trust, if the Welsh Conservatives are supporting this motion as well, that they are going to call on their UK Government to deliver on their promise of a social tariff to tackle fuel poverty this winter. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And I call on Heledd Fychan to reply to the debate.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and may I thank everyone who has contributed to this debate this afternoon? Some shocking statistics from Sioned at the outset, and I think Mabon, Delyth, Jack and others reflected on what is a truly shocking situation that people are facing, and the fact that we accept that people will die in their own homes, that we can just blurt out these statistics. These are people whom we represent, and I think that on occasion, things have become so terrible here in Wales that we normalise how appalling the situation is on the ground: the fact that we have normalised foodbanks; we are now normalising the need for fuel banks. When are we going to say, ‘Enough is enough’? When are we going to prioritise people? And I am gravely concerned. I know of the limitations of this Government—we understand this problems—but there are things that the Westminster Government has to do, of course, but this has been said time and time again, and the people whom we represent are facing a worsening situation. Jack said one thing, and I will turn to English.

Heledd Fychan AS: You mentioned not heating or eating, life or death, and I think it is really important we reflect on that. It’s not a matter of choices. That choice has been taken away from people by now, and we are really valuing profit more than people, and rather than tackling what needs to be tackled, making living affordable for people, rather than putting that cost related—. So, I do really reflect on all those comments, but it really should be sobering for us, and it’s not just remarks or soundbites; we need to be prioritising people.
We’re proud of the work that has been done in the co-operation agreement in alleviating some of the pressures people are facing, but as this debate has shown, there is more that both the Welsh and UK Governments can and must do to support those in need.
I do take it from your response to Sioned Williams, Minister, that April is a firm commitment. Obviously, we would have liked to see that already in place. By doing this now and not delaying until April, many more households who are in the severest levels of fuel poverty could be reaping some of the benefits of the programme this winter, so we are disappointed that it’s not already implemented. That’s why the focus is here today. In addition to this, the calls to set interim targets in the tackling fuel poverty plan to measure progress is key to all of this, to ensure that we are on target to meet the target of the plan itself.
Finally, as you did, Minister, our motion calls on the UK Government to introduce a social tariff to support those in need with their energy bills this winter. We all need to unite to ensure that that happens, and ensure, when the Westminster election does take place, that whoever is leading that Government prioritises people.The need for this consultation is something that has been supported by the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, so we do honestly need to see progress and action.
I think it is imperative that we reflect on those families sitting in cold homes this December, making the impossible decisions about what Christmas or what this winter will look like. People do not have any spare money. We see local authorities now having to look at charging for things that are really helping people. In my own region, £1 a day for a school breakfast club may not seem like a lot for the care element, but that is not affordable for many people, and neither is just keeping that home warm.
So, instead of the Warm Homes programmes that they were promised or the consultation on a social tariff, people will feel that they've been left with a Welsh and UK Government that has failed to deliver on promises. They do deserve better than that from us as representatives. A warm and safe home is not a luxury, as has been said. It is a basic human right. It's the least that people can expect. I very much hope that we can unanimously support this motion today and be a lifeline for so many households across Wales that demand action from us, not just words.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Voting Time

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. The first vote this afternoon is on item 5.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Okay, the first vote, Janet, is on item 5.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: [Inaudible.]

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: It's okay. I'll speak in English. The first vote is on item 5, which is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, in the name of Mark Isherwood. Open the vote. There is one Member left to vote. Thank you. Cau'r bleidlais. In favour 36, 11 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is carried.

Item 5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Pancreatic cancer: For: 36, Against: 0, Abstain: 11
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next vote will be on item 6. That's the Conservatives' debate. I'll take a first vote on the motion without amendment, and if the motion does not succeed, we will then vote on the amendments as tabled to the motion. Open the vote. One Member online—[Inaudible.] In favour 13, no abstentions, 33 against. Therefore, the motion unamended is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Road freight transport strategy. Motion without amendment: For: 13, Against: 33, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And we'll now vote on the amendments. Do you want to try and give Sarah an opportunity to get back in? [Inaudible.] Okay, we'll keep an eye on it at the moment. We want to make sure everybody has an opportunity, because there may be a technical problem. We will now open the vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. In favour 10, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Road freight transport strategy. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 10, Against: 36, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will now vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. The vote is tied: 23 in favour, no abstentions, 23 against. I have to use my casting vote against the amendment, and therefore the vote is now 23 in favour, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Road freight transport strategy. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 23, Against: 23, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Deputy Presiding Officer used his casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And seeing as the motion was not agreed and amendments 1 and 2 were not agreed, nothing has been agreed, and that brings our voting today to an end.

9. Short Debate: Increasing the use of public transport: Why young people should travel for free

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will now move to the short debate.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Will those who are leaving please do so quietly so we can continue with our business for the day?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: And I call on Heledd Fychan to speak on the subject she has chosen.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. I’m pleased to have this opportunity to lead on this short debate today, outlining why young people should be allowed to travel free of charge on public transport. I will be giving a minute of my time to Sioned Williams and Luke Fletcher, and I’m extremely grateful to the Members who are staying for the debate.
I very much hope that all Members of this Senedd will have been following the excellent work of the Youth Parliament, and the recent debate in the Chamber on the report of their Climate and Environment Committee, 'Sustainable Ways'. If you haven't read a copy, then do get a copy from the Senedd library. It's a very valuable report. It's also an important report, and I would like to thank members of the committee—Ffion, Jake, Harrison, Dylan, Hermione, Elena, Owain, Stella, Kasia, Finley and Sonia—for leading on this work. Although they have received a ministerial response to their recommendations already, I do think it's important that we, as Members of the Senedd, too, give full consideration to the recommendations made by them, ensuring that the work that they do does have an influence on and steers our work. The two Parliaments do need to work more closely together, and I would like like to see us actually giving real consideration to recommendations made by young people because they affect young people, and that’s why today, I want to use my time to state my support to one of the central demands of their report, namely that free transport should be introduced to those under the age of 25.
I'm sure that I'll get a similar response from the Minister today as the Youth Parliament received: 'The funding isn't available to do this.' Of course, we are all fully aware of the huge challenges faced by the Government in this financial year and the next. I also very much hope that we would all recognise that we don't receive the funding owed to us by Westminster. But what I do hope can be achieved through this short debate today is an agreement that this should be a recommendation that should be implemented, and that, therefore, on a cross-party basis, we should look at ways of making this possible in the coming years. We should also be better promoting the schemes in place to make public transport more appealing and affordable to young people. After all, this also accords with the work of the expert panel on the cost-of-living crisis, which, as part of its 29 recommendations, said that two recommendations should be focused on, namely that the Welsh Government and local authorities should trial free bus transport for young people by introducing free travel for those under 16 years of age in 2024-25 for a trial period, and, secondly, that the Welsh Government and local authorities should take part in more actively marketing MyTravelPass for young people between 16 and 24 years of age now, before introducing free transport for those between 16 and 18 years of age in 2025-26.

Heledd Fychan AS: It's therefore not surprising that, during my time as a Senedd Member, young people have consistently raised issues around public transport with me. Many of you will have heard me reference Ruben Kelman, who was until recently a Member of the Welsh Youth Parliament, and regularly brought to my attention how the cost of buses was impacting on school attendance in Llanishen High School. He presented to both Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government evidence from pupils, parents and teachers about this issue. And I'll quote:
'Frighteningly, 39 per cent of parents noted that their child had had to miss school because they weren't able to afford the cost of the bus. The majority of these pupils were living just under that threshold of 3 miles, which is the threshold for free transport. It was noted that one pupil had lost nine days this year and had lost 15 the previous year because her family weren't able to afford the cost of the bus. These were the words of one parent:
'"Over the last few months, I have analysed what bills can be delayed in paying, so my daughter can attend school. It's soul destroying. Please help us parents."'
It's not the first time I've read that quote out in this Chamber, and whilst there has been an acknowledgement that there was an issue, Ruben, despite all his representation, was encouraged to wait for the outcome of the learner travel review. As we're all aware, as part of the learner travel review, concerns were raised regarding the 3- and 2-mile radius policy, the lack of dedicated school transport for post-16 learners, and issues related to eligibility criteria. And as I raised in this Chamber last week, whilst many local authorities offered free transport below the threshold, we're seeing this potentially changing. Rhondda Cynon Taf council, for example, is proposing changes to the eligible distance for free school transport in line with the current learner measure of 3 miles for secondary schools and 2 miles for primary. This proposal could see around 2,700 pupils in RCT alone no longer eligible for free transport to school.
In an already challenging financial period for many families, this announcement will understandably cause concern. I have already been contacted by a number of those who will be affected this decision, should it proceed, and they fear they will not be able to afford to send their children to school and worry that the active travel routes in place, if they are in place, are not suitable or safe. We are talking about the Valleys here, where 2 miles up and down hill is not the same, and being able to cycle to school is not an option. I cannot say that it's safe for my child to go to school, which is less than a mile, by himself, because there are no safe travel routes, and this is true for so, so many parents.
It may also be worth reminding us of the 2022 inquiry into bus and rail transport by the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, which recommended that the Welsh Government should address transport poverty in Wales and provide subsidised fare pricing and other financial support.
While the shortage of buses, reduced timetables or unreliable services are also issues that many young people have mentioned, the biggest barrier is cost and, as I mentioned, this is reinforced by the Welsh Youth Parliament’s report, which found that affordability was one of the biggest barriers to using public transport. Evidence from the children's commissioner also showed that free transport is in the top 5 asks from young people, with the highest number wanting this from the 12 to 18 age group.
In addition to impacting on school and college attendance, cost is also stopping many young people from being able to access essential services, job opportunities or socialise with friends, something that's so important post COVID and for their well-being and mental health. And whilst I welcome the recent uplift in the education maintenance allowance from £30 to £40, and the fact that it has been retained here in Wales, young people are still spending a significant amount of their EMA, upwards of £20, on travel, affecting their ability to pay for other essential items, including textbooks.
While there are existing schemes such as the 16-21 MyTravelPass, free off-peak train travel for under 16s, and student railcards that provide discounted fares and encourage young people to use public transport, research conducted by the Welsh Youth Parliament shows that there is a limited awareness of these initiatives. By expanding and promoting these schemes, we can make public transport a viable and affordable option for our young people.
Looking beyond Wales, there are already several schemes that provide free or discounted travel for young people in nearby nations, such as Transport for London's offering for free bus and tram travel for all under 16s, free travel on Transport for London transport services for under 11s, and discounted travel for students over 18. Last year, Scotland also introduced free bus travel for five to 21-year-olds and have seen an uptake by around two thirds of eligible users, and additional patronage has allowed some bus companies to increase service provision, benefiting everyone. In some cities in England, such as Manchester, specific bus services are free for all ages, including young people. The Department for Transport has introduced a £2 bus fare cap in England. So, there are many things that can be put in place. Countries like Malta, Luxembourg, and some cities in France, provide no-fare policies on public transport for all age groups. In Germany, there are discounted fare tickets and railcards available for young people, while Romania offers free public transport for pre-university students and 90 per cent reduced fares for students under 30.
While Wales's transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', aims to make sustainable transport more affordable and accessible, it does not currently include provisions for supporting travel costs for children and young people. This is disappointing and I join Barnado's Cymru in urging the Welsh Government to consider the significant impact of expensive travel on young people and their families.

Heledd Fychan AS: One element that I haven't mentioned yet, of course, is what the impact of introducing such a policy would be on future use of public transport. After all, evidence shows that this would normalise the use of public transport for the rest of these young people's lives, thereby forming an important part of our response to the climate emergency.
As I said earlier, the purpose of today's debate isn't to persuade the Senedd of the merits of this policy, but rather to encourage cross-party discussion on how we can make this a reality. Therefore, to conclude my contribution, I'd like to ask the Minister whether she might include in her response answers to the following questions. Does the Government agree with the principle of introducing free public transport for young people under the age of 25? Could we have an update on the review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 and the actions emanating from it? And if free transport cannot yet be introduced, what will the Government do to promote better what is currently available and to expand it to increase the numbers using public transport?

Heledd Fychan AS: Reducing the financial burden on young people, encouraging and supporting sustainable travel, and ensuring that transport costs do not hinder anyone from being able to access education, employment or essential services should be a priority. So, let's today commit to working together, across party political divides, to find ways to make this possible, so that we can show the young people of Wales that we are listening to their views as a Seneddand putting measures in place to remove as many barriers as possible that they face both now and in the future.

Sioned Williams AS: I'd like to thank Heledd Fychan very much for bringing this important debate to the Senedd. My Facebook page is full of messages from parents who are concerned about the fact that they can't afford transport for their children.

Sioned Williams AS: I was recently contacted by residents from the Fairyland area of Neath, who, since the start of this academic year, have lost their school bus. While the distance between Fairyland and Cefn Saeson Comprehensive School isn't great, it's a really steep, uphill climb, up Cimla hill. This means, for many, the bus was an absolute necessity. Pupils are now having to walk into Neath town centre from Fairyland to catch one of the other service buses, however they're becoming overcrowded, they don't always get on, and some pupils have had to wait another half an hour for a bus, which means they're getting to school late. One child arrived late for an exam. Discussions are now taking place to allow pupils to buy seats on a bus that would pick up from Fairyland again, but it's £5 a day per pupil. That's £25 a week per pupil.
So, we've spoken yesterday about the importance of school attendance in relation to attainment and the impact that rising costs can have on the ability of young people to get to and from school. So, surely, providing free transport would encourage school attendance, would provide relief for families during this cost-of-living crisis, but, as you said, increase that use of public transport at a time when it really needs it.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you to Heledd Fychan for giving me a minute of time in this debate. I wanted to touch on two particular points, which are school attendance and education maintenance allowance, which are, actually, quite viciously linked in the sense that, if a student misses out on school, they miss out on their EMA payment.
Throughout the campaign to increase and expand EMA, I held panels in schools and colleges across Wales. We heard directly from students that transport was one of the largest costs that they experienced through their EMA payment, but a number of them highlighted that very point, that, where they were unable to afford to come to school, they didn't just miss out on their education, they missed out as well on that EMA payment. In some cases, they missed out on their free school meals as well. So, this goes, I think, not just on education, but it also goes on the ability then of students to actually live their lives, because, obviously, EMA is covering food, it's covering transport, it's covering the textbooks, but if you're doing a more physical course, like construction, it's also covering a lot of the tools and workwear in that sense, but also, more importantly as well, it's covering elements of social lives that are being missed out. So, I would really appreciate from the Minister an understanding as to whether or not the Welsh Government has thought about, at the very minimum, expanding free transport to those who are on EMA and free school meals.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Minister for Social Justice to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Heledd Fychan.

Jane Hutt AC: It's really important, this debate today, because, as you've outlined very clearly, increasing the use of public transport has many benefits, and, as set out in 'Llwybr Newydd', our transport strategy, we want to create an environment where public transport and active travel are accessible, affordable and integrated, and children and young people are key to delivering those ambitions.
Your debate is particularly timely, as it's an issue both the Deputy Minister and Minister for Climate Change have been questioned on in their recent regular meetings with the Children's Commissioner for Wales, for example, who has called for free travel for under 18s in her past two annual reports, and it's a key action in her forward-looking strategy. We're aware of the support for such a policy by the people of Wales. Most recently, and, as you said, arguably the most compelling call has come from young people themselves through the Welsh Youth Parliament. Of course, you've drawn attention to their report, 'Sustainable Ways', on sustainable travel, which they published at the end of October, inspiring debate in the Siambr on 25 November, clearly articulating their views on the benefits of introducing free transport for under-25s. So, we can't and don't ignore these calls, which so clearly demonstrate that enabling access to public transport, whether that's improving affordability, accessibility or reliability, really is something that energises, motivates and engages people, but especially young people, and anything we can do to harness and learn from this enthusiasm is to be encouraged. But, unfortunately, the current model of delivery and the need to use our limited resources to protect as many bus services as possible doesn't give us the tools or the resources we need to be able to make any immediate changes. But we are hopeful that our plans on bus reform and continued investment in rail services could offer some room for improvement in the future.

Jane Hutt AC: Within the current deregulated bus operating model, the only way we're able to offer discounted or free travel is to negotiate reimbursement arrangements with operators, which has proved to be a costly affair. And, as has been seen with the free travel offer for under-22s in Scotland, this can lead to escalating costs of more people choosing to travel, and we clearly and currently don't have the money to support this. But the bus Bill, which we're bringing to the Senedd in the new year, will legislate for a franchised bus network, and this model will provide us with an opportunity to consider a simplified, affordable and unified system for all those travelling on public transport. And in a franchised environment, the maths might be different. Our costs would only significantly increase if additional services were required, and revenue foregone for additional journeys would be cost neutral. So, the only costs would be lost revenue from journeys that would still have been made without free travel. So, over time, this may then be offset by building travel habits and encouraging people to continue using the bus once they're no longer eligible for free travel, as has been outlined today.
We are realistic, though, and we appreciate that this doesn't mean franchising is a silver bullet. We've seen this year how challenging the economics of running bus services has become. Without additional funding, any loss of revenue, even a short-term one, could only be accounted for by reducing services, undermining the purpose of discounted travel in the first place. And I'm sure we'll come back to this—it'll be a subject, clearly, as the Bill progresses through the Senedd next year. But I think it is important to understand the barriers, the complexities that the current deregulated market presents us. I know you are aware of this, in any case, but it's important to understand that, obviously—for us all to understand it—in terms of considering these types of interventions.
So, I want to assure you and the Members of the Senedd that we continue to explore a range of options to make bus and rail travel easier and more accessible for everyone, including young people, in the community by simplifying the fares and ticketing system. We've already undertaken a comprehensive piece of planning work around options to deliver a fairer fares offer for passengers in Wales, which has included the potential introduction of an enhanced young person's ticket offer. These are tough choices in terms of how we deploy our limited resources, and you've acknowledged that. And we have had to prioritise our bus funding to safeguard essential bus services, helping to keep fares as low as possible to encourage passengers to return to the buses. And, just for the record, by the end of this financial year, we will have provided the bus industry with over £200 million since the beginning of the pandemic, and this funding has effectively saved the bus industry from collapse in Wales. But it means that we haven't been able to progress as quickly as we would've liked on our fairer fares commitments. And as and when the funding position does improve, we are keen to progress this piece of work and will continue to work with children and young to develop any future intervention.
There are short-term actions that can and will be taken to ensure that young people are encouraged to use public transport, and that was one of your questions in this debate. Thanks to the Welsh Youth Parliament, we know that more engagement needs to be undertaken with young people to increase awareness of the discounts currently available for them to use our public transport network. We were genuinely surprised to receive the findings of their survey, in that over 75 per cent of respondents were unaware of the Welsh Government MyTravelPass scheme, which provides 16 to 21-year-olds with up to a third off bus travel. So, we've committed to working with Transport for Wales to take forward a piece of work to run a targeted campaign, and to develop relevant and accessible resources, to ensure that children and young people are aware of all the travel benefits they can access on both buses and trains. Our worry is that if people don't know about the MyTravelPass scheme, it could be that they're not aware of the other free and discounted travel schemes available, such as that under-11s can travel for free on Transport for Wales-operated rail services, and under-16s can travel for free on off-peak Transport for Wales services when accompanied by a fare-paying adult. Additionally, the 16-17 saver railcard is available for use on all rail services across Wales and England, offering 50 per cent off most rail fares every day of the year, with no time restrictions and no minimum fare, for an annual cost of £30. There are various discounted bus tickets offered by different bus operators as well, which you'll be aware of, but young people aren't always aware of them, or the family.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Will you take an intervention on that? You're talking about all the things there, and, obviously, that would frame the way that it's a demand-led service. We've heard a lot when we've been talking about budgets about the demand not being there, but they're not being made aware. So, is it a worry, then, that people aren't aware of things, and that might skew some of the budgetary choices that you're making and saying that the demand isn't there, but people aren't aware of it?

Jane Hutt AC: I can absolutely assure you that is not the case at all. As I said, we're very keen to progress these options much more, the offers to young people. Actually, I was going to go on to the point about the Minister and the Deputy Minister working on this. What I was saying, in a way, was that we were surprised at the lack of awareness amongst young people that came out of the report from the Welsh Youth Parliament. I've repeated those offers in order for us to use the opportunity—it's on the record from your debate—to try and get the message over, and in fact, as I said, Transport for Wales is doing some work on this. So, what we've got we've got to promote, haven't we? And we've got to work on how we can progress. As soon as we regulate, with the franchising system, it will make things easier, despite the fact that we've got budgetary challenges, and, obviously, I won't go over the fact that we've had to, as you know, put the money we've got into saving our bus services in Wales, which of course do help all ages.
So, in a sense, I was just going on to say that giving this information about what is available, and understanding the views and the report from the Welsh Youth Parliament, we want to make sure that children, young people and families are aware of all these discounts, and, hopefully, we're all going to promote these in our constituencies across Wales. And we're fully committed to collaborating with children and young people in developing any future interventions and schemes. We've asked Transport for Wales to continue to accelerate the establishment of a children and young people's advisory group, and, obviously, all of this will feed into that, and that's a forum to explore with children and young people opportunities to encourage them and future generations to active travel and make use of public transport, and also to look at appropriate ways in which we can move forward with more offers to young people.
Now, I do want to have a moment, if I've got time, to focus on the learner travel issues, because, obviously, you'll be aware that there's an internal review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure. That's the legislative framework for school transport, and that review's taking place this year. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change and the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language have received the review's report and recommendations. The Minister for Climate Change is meeting the Minister for education next week to discuss proposed next steps, and they hope to provide a written statement to the Senedd in the new year.
I think all of what we've said today, and what I've said in response to your debate, around the legislative changes we're planning around reform of the bus services strengthens support to engage with children and young people through that advisory group with Transport for Wales and the current financial situation imposed upon us. Again, there are no plans to take immediate action to change the current Learner Travel (Wales) Measure, but we are expecting to be in extensive consultation to update the statutory guidance documents to address many of the issues that have been raised by stakeholders, children, young people and you throughout the work of the review. And the review has identified some excellent best practice taking place across Wales, and we'd like to ensure that this is disseminated and replicated, trying to maximise the use of public transport routes for school and college children.
So, I'll finish here by thanking you, Heledd, once again, for bringing this important subject to the Senedd, and to reassure you and other Members that your contribution, your debate is really important to us in terms of our policies. We're trying to maximise our resources to ensure that children and young people and their families know the opportunities they can access to reduce the costs for them to access public transport. Thank you, Luke, for those comments about EMA, which, of course, I know you've been promoting and has been expanded, but I think it was an important contribution you made. We do hope that our longer term vision for integrated public transport will be realised for the benefit of children and young people and communities across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd / The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:11.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Carolyn Thomas: What consideration has the Minister given to the impact of extreme weather events when allocating funding to local authorities?

Rebecca Evans: Climate change and related weather events are a concern across Wales. Local authorities have statutory functions to deal with emergencies and are required to plan accordingly. We have protected the unhypothecated revenue funding for local authorities this year and in our last two budgets.

Rhys ab Owen: What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services about assisting NHS boards to reduce their deficits?

Rebecca Evans: I regularly engage in bilateral meetings with the Minister for Health and Social Services. Protecting front-line services like our NHS is a priority for this Government. This was demonstrated in the additional £425 million allocated to support the NHS this financial year, and will also be reflected in next month’s budget.